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Well, they are elite choices right now, should have put that on the picture also.
Even with Formosa, you still may only take 3-12 of them, so it's unlikely that the FOC change invalidates the second sentence, if it is only worded to change parts of the first.

General rules:
Henchmen are found in the elites section of the grey knights army.
You may have 0-3 Elites in your army
You must have 2-6 Troops in your army

Specific Rules(Henchmen):
3-12 Henchmen may be taken/inquisitor.
Henchmen units do not take up FOC slots

Specific rules(Coteaz)
You may have any number of henchmen units in your army.(You no longer need 1 inquisitor/Henchmen unit)
You now take Henchmen units as Troops.

Take all those rules and add them up and you get:
You may take 3-12 Henchmen as a troops unit.
Your henchmen units do not take up FOC Selections.
You are only required to take Coteaz as an inquisitor, and then may take as many Henchman units as you want.

The Henchmen Rule does not tie the "does not take a slot" portion to the Elites slots, they simply do not take slots(wherever they may be purchased from). It also does not Tie the lack of Slot filling to the fielding of inquisitors; these are separate sentences and thus separate rules.

This is not in any way "game Breaking" Most armies will only have 6-8 henchmen units in them because you need more than min-sized units to be effective, and smaller sized units will need to be fairly expensive in order to be effective.The last list I playtested(out of the leaked dex) was 6 units of henchmen, 4 Chimera, an Ass-cannon Razorback, and a Crusader-pattern Storm raven. It still did not fair terribly well(in the end they won, but once their vehicles were destroyed, most of the units died quickly)

In a 1500 point game; you can get maybe 12 effective henchmen units; a Similar sized Guard or marine army can get the same 12 Scoring units, make them effective through wargear choices(and general Marineiness).

Homer S wrote:

AgnosticGod wrote:Same as Draigo, (I will admit this would be a lot of points) but you could potentially take 9 units of Paladins if you so chose to as 6 were taken as troops choices and 3 as elites. No different than with Coteaz.

Please someone correct me if I am interpreting this incorrectly.

AgnosticGod wrote:@ph34r & @biccat

First, I agree with both of you.

Second, just to clarify, is my example with Draigo correct as well. Since they "may be taken as.." and not "make them..." troops I could potentially have a total of 9 units of Paladins?

I just want to make sure I am interpreting that correctly.

Sorry, Draigo's rule, pg. 82 says Paladins are Troops choices. So max 6 units, not 9.

Homer

Thank you, that is what I needed clarified.

Kommissar Kel wrote:The Henchmen Rule does not tie the "does not take a slot" portion to the Elites slots, they simply do not take slots(wherever they may be purchased from). It also does not Tie the lack of Slot filling to the fielding of inquisitors; these are separate sentences and thus separate rules.

Henchmen in the Elites slot don't take up an FOC because you need those slots to get the Inquisitors to then take the Henchmen. That's why they don't take an FOC.

As has been pointed out, Coteaz's rule states "Henchmen become Troops..." Not, may be troops, they ARE troops. Its a more specific rule than the normal Henchman entry. So if you take Coteaz, you get 6, and they take up slots.

That is very wrong for 2 very important reasons:

1) Inquisitors are Hqs, not Elites

2) The Rule never states this to begin with.

I already stated that they become troops; and as has already been stated as well the Henchmen rule that they do not take up slots is not dependent on them being in the elite slot. Had it said that they do not take up Elite slots you would be correct that they would then take up Troop slots; but it doesn't it says they do not take up Elite slots.

Which rule are you using?

Chris, me?

If so Final Codex; Inquisitors of all 3 ordos and the 3 SC Inquisitors are all HQs, there is no Elite Inquisitor entries.

The "more Specific rule" that Cruentis is using is simply that henchman are troops; which does not have any effect whatsoever on them not taking up FOC slots(Which is their own very specific rule).

Which is what I'm getting at.

This is used by all armies with both an Inq and a Warband;
"Henchmen: For each inq you may include one squad, this unit does not use up a FOC slot"

Followed by the more specific;
"Lord of Formosa: ...warbands are troops choices" IIRC


From what I've been able to find from a quick skim, 'choices' and 'selection' and 'slot' all actually talk about the same thing... Slot for example is only ever used three times in the BRB and none of them is to say 'a slot is...' or 'we use slots for'. So you have two rules one that's always applied to the unit which would mean Warbands do not count, and the more specific, which is only applied to the unit in armies containing LoF, saying 'Count as troop choices' if they don't use up a slot one can't take them as a troops choice... oil meet water =P

Kel, you have two ways to take Warbands in the codex:

A) Include an Inquisitor HQ.
B) Include Coteaz.

If you use A, you are able to take a warband that does not take up a slot.
If you use B, you are able to take a warband that is a troop.

I wasn't trying to replace sentences earlier, I was trying to replace rules. You can either use the rule on page 86, or the rule on page 90. You can't use part of one and part of the other.

somerandomdude wrote:Kel, you have two ways to take Warbands in the codex:

A) Include an Inquisitor HQ.
B) Include Coteaz.

If you use A, you are able to take a warband that does not take up a slot.
If you use B, you are able to take a warband that is a troop.

I wasn't trying to replace sentences earlier, I was trying to replace rules. You can either use the rule on page 86, or the rule on page 90. You can't use part of one and part of the other.

So by that logic, if you use B you can field henchmen troops of 200 models? There is no limitation on unit sizes on page 86, only on page 90.
Whenever you have a rule that is more specific than another you overwrite all conflicts with the specific one. Cortaz ist more specific than general henchmen, so he replaces any conflicts. Beeing a troops selection and not taking up a FOC is not a conflict. You have to use both rules as per definition of permissive rulesets. You are only ever allowed to not use a rule when an exception is given.

somerandomdude wrote:Kel, you have two ways to take Warbands in the codex:

A) Include an Inquisitor HQ.
B) Include Coteaz.

If you use A, you are able to take a warband that does not take up a slot.
If you use B, you are able to take a warband that is a troop.

I wasn't trying to replace sentences earlier, I was trying to replace rules. You can either use the rule on page 86, or the rule on page 90. You can't use part of one and part of the other.

I do not understand how you are removing the second rule Henchmen have, which is the do not take up a FoC slot. Coteaz alters the first rule limiting the number of them, but the FOC slot on is totally separate. I must have missed it, can you show me in Coteaz's rules where he overrides this second rule?

You are attempting to associate 2 different rules within the same paragraph as the Same rule; they are not. The inquisitor entry on page 90 is rather clear: you may include 1 unit/Inquisitor. Henchmen units do not take up FOC slots.

Those are different 1 Sentence rules. Changing 1 without Changing the other is perfectly fine much in the same way as adding that Models wounded but not killed by a Power fist strike are at I1 next turn, and Vehicles automatically take a Crew shaken result when they are damaged by that power fist makes that power fist a thunder hammer.

Or Adding 2d6 armor penetration to a power fist makes it a Chainfist.

p.s. the only way to take henchmen is via an Inquisitor: Inquisitor Coteaz is an Inquisitor.