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Very possible. Decker_cky on Herdstone forum suggested that they should have these point costs:
Ghorgon - 225
Cygor - 200
Jabberslythe - 175.
If so was the case, I'd be very much satisfied...

That's crazy low. A Jaberslythe at 175? That's silly talk. It's a flying, terror, immune to psychology, poisoned attacks, nearly all 5 stats monster, that has an automatic AE attack every round and a few other abilities.

The AE attack alone is very similar to the Casket of Souls. Not as good, but it works in an AE instead of against one unit. That ability alone is worth a ton.

DukeRustfield wrote:That's crazy low. A Jaberslythe at 175? That's silly talk. It's a flying, terror, immune to psychology, poisoned attacks, nearly all 5 stats monster, that has an automatic AE attack every round and a few other abilities.

The AE attack alone is very similar to the Casket of Souls. Not as good, but it works in an AE instead of against one unit. That ability alone is worth a ton.

Yet the ability allmost never kills anything!

Right; re-rolling Ld tests makes that ability particularly weak. It has great potential, of course.
...which is why I've always thought it should be a roll against Leadership. An attack, not a test. That negates the problem, but with minimal changes.
As far as the rest of the monster goes...he's not that impressive. 5's across the line is poor by monster standards, and his combat ability isn't up to snuff. But rather than make him better, I'd drop it down in points. Maybe 250?

I think the Ghorgon at 225pts might be on the low side, but maybe not. The same with the Cygor, though I think he should be cheaper than the 'Slythe, on the simple grounds that he should be a more common sight on the field.

All this, though, is considering my opinion that all monsters should have a 5+ Scaly Skin save, if they don't already have a better one.

EagleArk wrote:Yet the ability allmost never kills anything!

It's pure bonus. "Oh, hay, everyone within 12" of me make a leadership test." If it does 1 wound, he just increased his best-possible damage by 20% (not including tstomp). It's gravy.

Yes... but a Varghulf is a flying, terror-causing, regenerating, hating, 5's across the board (except M8, W4, I2, and a lowly LD4) beast with thunderstomp for... you guessed it, 175 points

That's the problem with GW, the monsters people want to take are all under-costed... I'm looking at you, 175-point-Hydra...

RiTides wrote:Yes... but a Varghulf is a flying, terror-causing, regenerating, hating, 5's across the board (except M8, W4, I2, and a lowly LD4) beast with thunderstomp for... you guessed it, 175 points

Varghulfs dont fly though

Egad... yet it has wings...



Well, scratch that example! And I was wondering why no VC players I've faced have used one...

Those aren't wings, they're arm fat.

Well, with M8, the Varghulf is a good substitute for a flying monster. Still a good comparison to the 'Slythe, I think. For 100pts less you lose the Aura, Fly, and Slithey Tongue to gain...Hatred, Regenerate, and Undead. More than a fair trade, by a long shot.

The Jabberslythe costs as much as a dragon and is nowhere near that level of combat prowess. The Aura should be his thing; it's what you're paying for. And yet, the chances of losing even a single guy is barely worth mentioning when the BSB and General are around. It gets better when they're not, of course, but then you're paying a lot for a monster who only helps you out when you're already winning.

Malagor, Beastman SC, has the ability to remove Inspiring Pressence within 6" (unless general is actually in the army). Manbane standard is -1 LD within 6". I'm sure there's other stuff too.

Combined with Jab, that can tear up units.

DukeRustfield wrote:Malagor, Beastman SC, has the ability to remove Inspiring Pressence within 6" (unless general is actually in the army). Manbane standard is -1 LD within 6". I'm sure there's other stuff too.

Combined with Jab, that can tear up units.

Jabber=275

Manbane on b-gors=35

Malagor with death (doom and darkness)=350

Total=660

This could create some nasty situations for any army, but a monster at 275 p. should be omnious in it self, and shouldn't need a 350 p. upgrade in a 600+ plan to work as it should on its own.
As it is, the jabber is too frail to do any real damage in cc. Yes it has some short range attacks, but most of the time 10 Ungor Raiders could kill more models at a longer range.
So unless you have spend time modelling a Jabberslythe, and really want it to work, I would still surgest that you try to find something else to spend your points on, perhabs a way to boost your own Ld instead.

most of the time 10 Ungor Raiders could kill more models at a longer range.

I've pointed this out in other threads, but nearly all Core models are better for cost than just about all Specials/Rares/SCs. The other stuff are just force multipliers and gambles with high risk, high reward.

I agree that the monsters need a cost adjustment. But Hydras are not the baseline. Hydras are absurdly undercosted and everyone knows it (cept GW). I think Orcs and TK made good steps on Monsters in terms of cost and limited protection.

Yup, I'm with you there.

The forge world Siege Giant is a 275pt monster with the below rule. It seems a clear GW motto that monsters don't get lotsa armor, with some exceptions being Daemons and those are usually at least ~500 points.

Siege Armour
Chaos Siege Giants are encased in massive plates of iron and bronze armour inches thick, alternately strapped, nailed and fused into their flesh. This, coupled with the Giant’s bulk, makes them all but impervious to arrow fire, although it proves less effective against a foe brave (or foolish) enough to get in close enough to attack the Giant’s less protected thews and vitals. The Giant has a 5+ Armour save, which increases to 3+ against shooting attacks.

The design team seemed to write the Beastmen monster selection with an eye towards interchangeability. They wanted to make it easy for Beast players to try out the three new big nasties without making a dramatic overhaul of their lists, so they put them all at the same price point. In 7th Edition this made a fair amount of sense. In 8th, the Ghorgon is clearly the front runner (though still a tad overpriced), the Cygor a passable second, and the Jabberslythe a train wreck.

Out of the three monsters, only the Ghorgon was written with any sort of rules/role consistency. The Jabberslythe and Cygor are flavor text critters that just kind of had rules dumped on them without rhyme or reason. I would rework them all as follows.

Ghorgon: Drop to 250 points, no other change needed.

Jabberslythe: Drop to 250pts. Drop Aura of Madness down to a 6" radius, Leadership tests are taken on 3D6 (4d6 and discard highest against Cold Blooded units). Add a 5+ Scaly (Slimy?) Skin Save. Drop Leadership to 8. Add Stubborn.

Cygor: Drop to 250 points. Increase Weapon Skill to 3. Wizards testing for Soul Eater cannot use Inspiring Presence or benefit from a Battle Standard Bearer.

With those changes you have three tough monsters that each have a consistent role on the table. The Ghorgon beats things to death, the Jabberslythe creates absolute havoc in the middle of the enemy army and the Cygor functions as a support unit that hangs near your own lines, but can be an effective counter-punch if needed. For the most part, their rules would all work as originally intended before the changes that came with 8th Edition.

Saintspirit wrote:But the warsphinx with T8, most likely a good armour save, can hit around 20 models with one attack, lower cost and also is a special choice, is not wrong?

And the High Elf Star Dragon isn't half that good, and costs how much more? Be happy with what you've got.

Be happy with what you've got.

Quite hard when much of what you've got is terrible.

But I like what you wrote, SkaerKrow. That seems like something that could be of nice use.

Saintspirit wrote:Very possible. Decker_cky on Herdstone forum suggested that they should have these point costs:
Ghorgon - 225
Cygor - 200
Jabberslythe - 175.
If so was the case, I'd be very much satisfied...

Ghorgon at 225? Hmm no not really. But okay could work

Cygor is useless so the price is not a problem

Jabberslythe at 175! Man that would be rather unbalanced, flying and all.

All in all Beastmen monsters rearly win gaames for me, rather they help with the proces. Althou Ghorgons are great for killing statetroops, skaven and so.

Well, while 175 might be a bit low for the current incarnation of the Jabberslythe, I'd wager that it's closer to the mark than the current 275 point price tag. 8th Edition really did a number on the Manticore/Griffon cadre of monsters. Lacking an armor save, they relied on killing their way out of danger on the charge. Now that they no longer have that luxury (and face more support attacks besides), they really aren't particularly good at dealing with anything bigger than a light support unit. The Ghorgon mitigates this through sheer violence and an ability to recover wounds, and the Cygor can at least function as an (overpriced) Stone Thrower. The Jabber is left in a lurch. Which is a shame, because I really like my Jabberslythe conversion.

I don't understand how you guys are playing the big monsters. 275 is expensive but they get the mileage for the points IMHO.

For example the Jabberslythe can fly to support any ambushing units you may have. Couple this with the jabberslythe being close to warmachines to use its aura. One or to LD saves and that unit is toast without getting into cc with it. How I do this with out the Jabber eating lead is wait until an ambushing unit of 20 gors show up close to the warmachine, have them charge the nearest unit (not the WM). The Jabber then charges same unit from the side that will be closest to the WM. Bam a killer combo on the unit and the WM can only sit their and fail ld.

Your monsters get back 275pts on a regular basis? Even with your chosen scenario, I find it unlikely.

- the Ghorgon is pretty solid. Some improvements would be nice, like a touch of defensive capabilities.

- the Cygor isn't much of a monster in terms of smashiness, and has the ability to throw rocks (cool) and provide a minor threat to wizards (very specific). He's not worth 275pts as he is.

- the 'Slythe isn't very good in close combat for a monster, isn't all that durable, and has an ability that is nearly non-existent when the general and BSB are nearby. Again, not worth 275pts.

My solutions are again as follows: all monsters should have a 5+ or better Scaly Skin save. The 'Slythe should cost less and roll dice against the target's Ld, rather than force tests. Or they should test on 3d6 and ignore the lowest. The Cygor should cost less. Not sure what else he should do beyond that.

That is what I am asking, if you are taking a 'slythe why have it any where near a BSB or general? Also why expect it to be able to stand on its own against a unit?

To answer in order:

- because any worthwhile targets will probably be in range of one or both of those effects. And if it's not, the 'Slythe will probably have to dine on a cannon ball or two, if he wants some sanity for dessert.

- no one expects it to, but at 275pts, it's surprisingly fragile, and can fall from even small numbers of decent troops. It'll probably help your unit in the combat, but I doubt that it'll earn back its points and/or avoid enough of the beating to do it again.

And while the Ambush thing is nice, you either have to be lucky and get that unit where it's needed and where the 'Slythe can get to, or have enough Ambushing units that the odds are with you on it.

In actuality, I wonder if Stubborn would be a huge deal for basically all monsters. It would make that one turn of poor rolls less terrible, which would make it even harder to bring down via low-Strength attacks, but...if you're hoping to take down a Ghorgon with your Skavenslaves, you're probably doomed to failure anyway.

That's a really, really optimistic scenario that you're working with, Pael. Smart players don't have many valuable units outside of BSB/General range, and war machines don't just let a Jabberslythe walk up to them without bringing it under some degree of fire. Honestly, for war machine hunting, you're better off with a flock of Harpies than the Jabberslythe.

Saintspirit wrote:Ghorgon: M7 WS4 BS0 S7 T6 I3 A6 Ld10
Special rules: Bloodgreed (see the Beastmen book), Frenzy, Immune to Psychology, Large Target, Stubborn, Terror, Regeneration.
Devouring: The Ghorgon may forego all its normal attacks and instead make a special attack. The Ghorgon makes one attack against each model in the front rank of one enemy unit it is in base contact with. These attack has the Killing Blow special rule, but To Wound rolls of 4, 5 or 6 act as Killing Blow attacks, instead of just rolls of 6. To Wound rolls of 6 acts as Heroic Killing Blow attacks.

Strength from Flesh: Each time a Ghorgon causes a Killing Blow/Heroic Killing Blow with its Devouring ability, it regains one Wound that it has lost earlier in the battle.

Now. Before you comment, take in mind what rules and points cost the other recent monsters has. In any case, the Ghorgon and the two other monsters in the Beastmen book is overpriced. Should the Ghorgon have these rules, I wouldn't mind its cost, but as it is, I'd say it is worth max 225 pts.

Stubborn and Regen is too powerful so is killing blows on a 4,5 or 6. That would be tooo overpowered.

rockerbikie wrote:

Saintspirit wrote:Ghorgon: M7 WS4 BS0 S7 T6 I3 A6 Ld10
Special rules: Bloodgreed (see the Beastmen book), Frenzy, Immune to Psychology, Large Target, Stubborn, Terror, Regeneration.
Devouring: The Ghorgon may forego all its normal attacks and instead make a special attack. The Ghorgon makes one attack against each model in the front rank of one enemy unit it is in base contact with. These attack has the Killing Blow special rule, but To Wound rolls of 4, 5 or 6 act as Killing Blow attacks, instead of just rolls of 6. To Wound rolls of 6 acts as Heroic Killing Blow attacks.

Strength from Flesh: Each time a Ghorgon causes a Killing Blow/Heroic Killing Blow with its Devouring ability, it regains one Wound that it has lost earlier in the battle.

Now. Before you comment, take in mind what rules and points cost the other recent monsters has. In any case, the Ghorgon and the two other monsters in the Beastmen book is overpriced. Should the Ghorgon have these rules, I wouldn't mind its cost, but as it is, I'd say it is worth max 225 pts.

Stubborn and Regen is too powerful so is killing blows on a 4,5 or 6. That would be tooo overpowered.

Keep in mind though that it already is stubborn and has the KB on 4, 5 or 6 special attack - I just added some to make it worth ts points.

Saintspirit wrote:

rockerbikie wrote:

Saintspirit wrote:Ghorgon: M7 WS4 BS0 S7 T6 I3 A6 Ld10
Special rules: Bloodgreed (see the Beastmen book), Frenzy, Immune to Psychology, Large Target, Stubborn, Terror, Regeneration.
Devouring: The Ghorgon may forego all its normal attacks and instead make a special attack. The Ghorgon makes one attack against each model in the front rank of one enemy unit it is in base contact with. These attack has the Killing Blow special rule, but To Wound rolls of 4, 5 or 6 act as Killing Blow attacks, instead of just rolls of 6. To Wound rolls of 6 acts as Heroic Killing Blow attacks.

Strength from Flesh: Each time a Ghorgon causes a Killing Blow/Heroic Killing Blow with its Devouring ability, it regains one Wound that it has lost earlier in the battle.

Now. Before you comment, take in mind what rules and points cost the other recent monsters has. In any case, the Ghorgon and the two other monsters in the Beastmen book is overpriced. Should the Ghorgon have these rules, I wouldn't mind its cost, but as it is, I'd say it is worth max 225 pts.

Stubborn and Regen is too powerful so is killing blows on a 4,5 or 6. That would be tooo overpowered.

Keep in mind though that it already is stubborn and has the KB on 4, 5 or 6 special attack - I just added some to make it worth ts points.

Even still on a 4, 4 or 6 makes it able to kill pretty much any man-sized model.

Um...the original has the ability to make one attack that has KB on a 4+. So, you've got one attack that has a chance of KB. He's got a 25% chance to kill a man-sized model. Not great odds, really. And let's not forget Ward saves. I mean, I wouldn't gamble my general on a 12.5% chance o' death, but I probably wouldn't gamble my Ghorgon on it either.

Beyond all this, we've come a long way from the original post. The Ghorgon recovers, what, d3 wounds when he makes that attack? I think Saintspirit had a decent idea; make the attack have a higher chance to do something less impressive, but we've pretty much all accepted that a 4+ KB against everyone in B2B is too drastic.

So...back to the current stuff. I say Stubborn for all monsters, and a 5+ scaly skin save or better. For all monsters ever.

5+ scaly skin is almost meaningless though. S5 weaponry / spells ignores your save completely. With most monsters having T5 or better, it means anything with a 50/50 shot of wounding you also ignores your armor save. Better to have a 5+ regen or something. Sure, flaming ignores it, but at least you get it when Empire Greatswords or the like hit you. I guess it's fine when you're W8 like the OnG spider, but for something with <=6 wounds...