Disappointed with Nids

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**bucheonman**

I like the ammo idea. It'd be hard to keep track of.

The fear one is overpowered, but I like the general concept. Something that makes Nids the psychological army. They have a few things already but they're few and far between. Devourers, Broodlord's ability, and the like.

DarthSpader wrote:i dunno. when i firststarted playing ages ago, the nids were new release, and i thought the idea was awsome. bugs from space, like the aliens movie. then i read the rules, and i got turned off. i kind of agree that they should have some sort of psycological effect on foes. nothing overly serious but maybe a LD penalty, or something like that - just to emphasize the fact that anyone in a combat role, space marine or not would have some doubt or fear about fighting them. they may not turn tail and run, but people who dont show fear in the threat of great danger are fools. its heros that are able to overcome that fear and acomplish the mission. marines, would probally be afraid but their training and enhancments would allow them to supress or at least continue to fight in spite of.

some ideas:
aside from actual unit entries which i wont touch because thats a whole other ball game... but heres some 'Nid USR

the swarm: to represent the sheer numbers of targets tyranids can present, or the percieved toughness, roll a d6 for every unit that fires at a tyranid unit, after the shots are resolved. on a 5+ that unit has run out of ammo, and may not shoot next phase as they are reloading. (the unit may move and or charge normally)

aura of terror: any non tyranid, non vehicle unit within 24" of a tyranid unit, must pass a LD check at the start of its players turn. if failed, they will fall back using the normal fallback rules. if the unit is fearless or has a simaler rule, they must still check but can reroll a failed result. additonally each testing unit gets a +1 LD bonus if their is a friendly HQ unit within 12" that is not falling back as well.

just something i thought up... probally OP but maybe it fits.

**Kanluwen**

-Loki- wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:The Swarmlord is less a "Hive Tyrant with expanded mental faculties" and more "the Hive Mind made flesh".

The whole point of the Swarmlord is that it's supposed to be a fragment of the Hive Mind encased into a Hive Tyrant's body, and devoted to that specific warzone.

My point was that that reasoning is dumb. There's no reason for the Hive Mind to need some uber powerful Hive Tyrant on the ground that is a manifestation of itself, because the Tyranid race is the Hive Mind already. It doesn't need something like that on the ground so it can make decisions, the Hive Mind is already on the ground, looking through the eyes of billions of separate organisms and relaying information and commands through synapse creatures. The idea that the Hive Mind needs something like that shows complete misunderstanding of what the Tyranids are by the person writing the book.

Except it really doesn't.

The Swarmlord being an 'avatar of the Hive Mind' is far from being a "dumb" idea.
It amounts to the Emperor himself possessing a Saint, or the way the Collector would 'take control' in ME2.

It's an escalation of the conflict, and what amounts to "Okay, let's finish this crap now" when you look at it.

The other 'unique' Tyranids make sense. The Swarmlord doesn't.

If the other 'unique' Tyranids make sense, then the Swarmlord does--because it's the same concept.
The Swarmlord is utilized for specific tasks and circumstances of a warzone.
Just like the other 'unique' Tyranids.

It's a cool little rule, but most people aren't going to be relying on small arms to take down that many gaunts. That's what pie plates are for.

And considering the way the rule's written--even those ordnance slingers can run out of ammo

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Gotta remember though that Endless Swarm was from the last edition. Ironic in that Guards now get that rule in the form of Chenkov's "Send in the Next Wave", now Nids are the ones running out of ammo. XD

"Send in the Next Wave" only applies to Conscript Squads, and costs 75 points.

"Without Number" was a 3 point/model ability that stated "any brood of Gaunts with a cost of 8 points or less per model may be given the Without Number special rule".

"Without Number" is a bit more flexible than "Send in the Next Wave", but again it comes down to when the Codices were made.

**MechaEmperor7000**

Gaunt Squads were just one type of unit too, although I do admit they had far more customizability than Conscripts. However Without Number usually raised the Gaunt's cost above 8 points, while Send in the Next Wave keeps the Conscript costs below 8, and that is if you just take a min squad of them (which kinda irks me even more now, since Guard now effectively has a better version of it).

**Fallanir**

Old One Eye and the Red Terror gone? I looked, Red Terror is gone, Old One Eye's still there? Am I missing something here?
One thing I hate about tyrannids, or think is stupid, is that their MCs can't be killed with a single hit. I think I wrote or commented on another thread about that. I mean, hit a carnifex with a missile in the head, it blows up. Actually happens in one of the Uriel Ventriss books, I forget the name. I think there should be a "head shot" or "critical hit" rule or something for killing MCs with tank-killing weapons, like lascannon and such.

**Kanluwen**

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Gaunt Squads were just one type of unit too, although I do admit they had far more customizability than Conscripts. However Without Number usually raised the Gaunt's cost above 8 points, while Send in the Next Wave keeps the Conscript costs below 8, and that is if you just take a min squad of them (which kinda irks me even more now, since Guard now effectively has a better version of it).

You're missing the point I was actually making.

Gaunts were 4 points, bare. At least one point always had to be spent on a weapon(Spinefists being the cheapest, at 1 point leaving 3 more points of wiggle room for equipment).
The unit was also taken entirely by itself and didn't require a character or be attached to another unit to take its "Without Number" ability.

Send in the Next Wave requires you to take Commander Chenkov in a Platoon Command Squad, and then a minimum of 2 Infantry Squads just to field a single Conscript Squad.
You need another platoon, with a PCS+2 minimum Infantry Squads to get more Conscript Squads--and it's 75 pts/Conscript Squad for them to get "Send in the Next Wave".

So the two really aren't comparable outside of the effect. SintNW requires a lot more points, and offers no real "wiggle room".
It's just a recyclable BS2 Lasgun delivery system.

**Arschbombe**

It seems to me that what the OP is driving at is the Nids don't evoke their fluff much on the tabletop. The same complaint can be made about other armies as well, but I think in the case of the nids it's more pronounced.

The nids are supposed to be the unstoppable juggernaut that scours systems of life in a relentless tide of annihilation. They can't be bargained with or reasoned with. They are driven by a primal instinct and the collective of the hive mind. Casualties are irrelevant because those casualties are just reabsorbed into the whole. Tactics are neither here nor there. The nids just overwhelm defenders with more targets than they can possibly kill.

But the nids on the tabletop are the opposite of that. They've "evolved" into an Eldarish "finesse" army that requires the utmost in precision and "synergy" to achieve success. The nid player has to carefully manage and herd his charges so the little ones can be effective, but also ensure that the little ones don't cause the big ones to get taken out in multiple assaults. They're now more dependent on psychic powers and their own psychic defense has been neutered. The orks are better at the swarm game than they are. All the arguments about their competitiveness in 5th edition aside, they just feel wrong.

**MechaEmperor7000**

Fallanir wrote:Old One Eye and the Red Terror gone? I looked, Red Terror is gone, Old One Eye's still there? Am I missing something here?
One thing I hate about tyrannids, or think is stupid, is that their MCs can't be killed with a single hit. I think I wrote or commented on another thread about that. I mean, hit a carnifex with a missile in the head, it blows up. Actually happens in one of the Uriel Ventriss books, I forget the name. I think there should be a "head shot" or "critical hit" rule or something for killing MCs with tank-killing weapons, like lascannon and such.

It's the 4th ed book. Old One Eye made a return in the 5th ed book but for some reason Red Terror didnt. Mawlocs however did bring back some features of the Red Terror (gaping maw design wise and the theme of devouring things, but it didnt bring back much in the way of the RT's rules).

@ Kan: By and by it's still the same rule. You gotta admit the irony is delicious when the guard, who use to run out of ammo shooting at the nids, now gets the rule that allowed nids to make them run out of ammo. XD

**Kanluwen**

There's nothing in either rule about "making them run out of ammo".

That's an Apocalypse rule, called "Bodies over Bullets" for the "Endless Swarm" datasheet.

And in that datasheet, every type of Gaunt(Hormagaunt or Gaunt) received the rule.

**MechaEmperor7000**

I'm sure a fluff and rules expert like you should know full and well what I mean. If you dont it's no skin off my back if you're just trying to push an argument for the sake of post counts.

**Kanluwen**

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:I'm sure a fluff and rules expert like you should know full and well what I mean. If you dont it's no skin off my back if you're just trying to push an argument for the sake of post counts.

Well if you want a fluff account: Tyranids don't run out of ammo

I know what you're trying to say, but I'm just saying that the Guard have no ability that 'makes the enemy run out of ammo'

**MechaEmperor7000**

Bad grammar on my part. I was trying to state how it's ironic that guards now have the same rule that was implimented to represent how the guards themselves would run out of ammo.

EDIT: Not gonna jack up post count in another chickenfight argument Kan. But the last quib about the Gaunts in the 4th Ed book did indeed say that they would toss more Gaunt bodies at their enemies than their enemies had ammo. Make of it what you will, and you know exactly what I meant.

And any further rebuttles about the whole Without Number VS Send in the Next Wave we have should jsut be done privately. We've basically turned what was a discussion about the shortcomings of the Nids fluff into an argument about the specific wording and meaning of two related rules.

**Kanluwen**

Except it didn't represent that, it just represented the "unending tide of Tyranids".

The rule implemented to represent how the Guard(or other foes) run out of ammo fighting Tyranids is from Apocalypse, like I said.

Just sayin' Mecha. You're mixing two things together

**-Loki-**

Kanluwen wrote:The Swarmlord being an 'avatar of the Hive Mind' is far from being a "dumb" idea.
It amounts to the Emperor himself possessing a Saint, or the way the Collector would 'take control' in ME2.

Not really, since the Emperor himself isn't the collective minds of every human. The whole point of a hive mind is it is literally the mind of the hive, a collective consiousness that knows what every creature contributing to it knows. The hive mind does not need to 'ASSUME CONTROL' (yes, I've played ME2) of some creature to know what is going on. It knows, because some Tyranid down there knows.

Given that, it shouldn't need something 'on the ground' to come up with tactics. The fluff for the Swarmlord is it is deployed whan the hive mind cannot triumph, in order to come up with tactics. The collective hive mind knows what's going on in any given battle, and would be able to make far better tactical calls due to seeing through every pair of eyes rather than one. It would also know what the Swarmlord knows, and be able to think like the Swarmlord, since it creates the Swarmlord. The Swarmlord is an attempt to give the Tyranids a central 'leader'. Which, again, shows misunderstanding of what they are by the person writing the book.

**amanita**

Arshebombe wrote:

It seems to me that what the OP is driving at is the Nids don't evoke their fluff much on the tabletop. The same complaint can be made about other armies as well, but I think in the case of the nids it's more pronounced.

The nids are supposed to be the unstoppable juggernaut that scours systems of life in a relentless tide of annihilation. They can't be bargained with or reasoned with. They are driven by a primal instinct and the collective of the hive mind. Casualties are irrelevant because those casualties are just reabsorbed into the whole. Tactics are neither here nor there. The nids just overwhelm defenders with more targets than they can possibly kill.

But the nids on the tabletop are the opposite of that. They've "evolved" into an Eldarish "finesse" army that requires the utmost in precision and "synergy" to achieve success. The nid player has to carefully manage and herd his charges so the little ones can be effective, but also ensure that the little ones don't cause the big ones to get taken out in multiple assaults. They're now more dependent on psychic powers and their own psychic defense has been neutered. The orks are better at the swarm game than they are. All the arguments about their competitiveness in 5th edition aside, they just feel wrong.

Gotta agree with this!

One thing I really miss, not at all from a power standpoint but in the last codex the way broken tyranid units fled back towards the nearest synapse creature. That really gave them a unique game mechanic which made sense to me. Gone.

**Kroothawk**

1.) According to fluff, Eldar Guardians had hundreds of years of training, Fire Warriors can shot and loyal Space Marines don't fight loyal Space Marines. Game mechanics and meta-game don't represent that, so you have to use your fantasy to stay in fluff.
2.) The Alien Queen has always been something beyond the faceless swarm, so having a Swarm Lady with a bit of characters is not unfluffy.
3.) The Red Terror has been a misconcept, the old model could barely swallow a ripper. So the Mawloc is the true Red Terror now.
4.) Maybe try the Death Leaper or Parasite once to get back some unusual Alien feeling. And a tervigon spam is the current endless swarm.