Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

The real plus to ghouls is radiation heals them. It's not a resistance thing.

The Core Mechanic:
1. Roll a d20. You want to roll high! 20 is always a success and 1 is always a failure.
2. Add all relevant modifiers.
3. Compare the total to a target number.
If your check result is higher than or equal to the target number, you succeed. If your check result is lower than the target number, you fail. If your check succeeds, you determine the outcome. If your check was an attack, you roll damage. If it was a check to see if you managed to jump across a pit, your check result determines how far you jumped. If you succeed on a check when you’re trying to hide, the monsters don’t see you. There’s a little more to it than that, but the core mechanic governs all game play. All the rest of the rules in the book are extensions and refinements of this simple mechanic.

Always Round Down:
Unless otherwise noted, if you wind up with a fraction as the result of a calculation, round down even if the fraction is 1/2 or larger. For instance, this rule comes into play whenever you calculate an odd number, you always round down to the next lower whole number.

Skills:
Alright getting started on skills, skills are scaled from 1-25 with one being the worst and 25 the best. Skills are affected by their your ability score modifier, perks, an item, training and leveling up.

Skill Training:
Training in a skill means that you have some combination of formal instruction, practical experience, and natural aptitude using that skill. When you select a skill to be trained in, you gain a permanent +5 bonus to that skill. You can’t gain training in a skill more than once. If you’re a 1st-level, you can pick three skills from a list of 16. The table below shows the skills available in the game and the governing attribute that affects the skills modifiers in brackets.

Skills:
acrobatics (Agility)
athletics (Strength)
barter (Charisma)
energy weapons (Perception)
explosives (Perception)
thievery (Perception)
gun (Agility)
medicine (Intelligence)
melee (Strength)
repair (Intelligence)
science (Intelligence)
sneak (Agility)
speech (Charisma)
survival (Endurance)
unarmed (Endurance)

Attribute Modifiers (aka Ability Score modifiers):
Ability Score on S.P.E.C.I.A.L.:
Modifier in brackets.
1 (0)
2 (+1)
3 (+1)
4 (+2)
5 (+2)
6 (+3)
7 (+3)
8 (+4)
9 (+4)
10 (+5)

Generating Ability Scores:
Ability scores all start at one but you have 33 points to spend on them, the max score for an ability/attribute is 10 every time you raise an ability score you spend one of your 33 points. By the time you're done creating your level one character you'll have spent all 33 points, from then on the only way you can increase your attributes is by items and perks.

Skill Check:
To make a skill check, roll 1d20 and add the following:
-Your base skill check bonus with the skill
-All situational modifiers that apply
-Bonuses and penalties from powers affecting you
The total is your check result.

Manchu wrote:The real plus to ghouls is radiation heals them. It's not a resistance thing.

Ninja'd.

Also, would a super mutant be a playable class or a progression?

What do you mean by progression?

Manchu wrote:What do you mean by progression?

Start out as human and become a super mutant through some event.

Couple of thoughts.

I think super mutants should have 2 trained skills instead of 3 since they're "slower".

Humans need something extra or everyone will always take ghouls since they have more bonuses...

Call me naive but I doubt pen and paper rpg players are as obsessed with optimization as electronic gamers.

Surely people will pick humans to role play as humans?

corpsesarefun wrote:Start out as human and become a super mutant through some event.

This makes little sense from a fluff perspective. Super Mutants, even those that escape the strange society of other Super Mutants, rarely remember much of their past lives.

corpsesarefun wrote:Call me naive but I doubt pen and paper rpg players are as obsessed with optimization as electronic gamers.

You are naive. But I do wish you were right.

Manchu wrote:

corpsesarefun wrote:Start out as human and become a super mutant through some event.

This makes little sense from a fluff perspective. Super Mutants, even those that escape the strange society of other Super Mutants, rarely remember much of their past lives.

corpsesarefun wrote:Call me naive but I doubt pen and paper rpg players are as obsessed with optimization as electronic gamers.

You are naive. But I do wish you were right.

It makes sense in that a character can become a super mutant during game play though you are right they would have to treat it as essentially a new character.

I am saddened that people see role playing games as an excuse to maximize stats and "wtfpwn" people rather than you know, roleplay.

A character should be able to transform into a ghoul as well. Though ghouls are created through radiation and super mutants were created with F.E.V. so I think it would make sense that becoming a ghoul is easier then becoming a super mutant.

Ghouls are created from low level FEV exposure, always have been. It's best to ignore anything Bethesda says on the subject.

You know I don't remember ever coming across that piece of information in fallout 1 or 2. Never played the tactics or brotherhood of steel games.

Manchu wrote:

corpsesarefun wrote:Start out as human and become a super mutant through some event.

This makes little sense from a fluff perspective. Super Mutants, even those that escape the strange society of other Super Mutants, rarely remember much of their past lives.

corpsesarefun wrote:Call me naive but I doubt pen and paper rpg players are as obsessed with optimization as electronic gamers.

You are naive. But I do wish you were right.

Manchu, all RP is based upon character progression.

A more recent example is in DnD 4.0 whereby certain classes can progress to demi-god status... eg. Avatar of Primal Wrath

Similarly, a player in Fallout could make the transition from Human-> Ghoul or Super Mutant...

How is this difficult to understand?

corpsesarefun wrote:Call me naive but I doubt pen and paper rpg players are as obsessed with optimization as electronic gamers.

Depends on the gamers and the game. D&D, for example, has a lot of 'optimization' discussions. Other games often have less, but there's usually some. Due tot he anture of RPGs, the big problem is generally that if a group ahs a bunch of 'moderate' characters and one over-powered character, the overpowered character can steal the show and ruin everyone's fun.

corpsesarefun wrote:Surely people will pick humans to role play as humans?

I deal with humans all day. Dealing with elves, dwarves, hobbitses, wookies, and trolls would be a nice change.

AvatarForm wrote:How is this difficult to understand?

What's difficult is understanding the distinction you're drawing between leveling and progression (since you didn't explain it). Assuming C.A.F. understood you correctly, you're just talking about an element of story that would probably be covered by adding a template. Now that could work and be fluffy, as long as the player goes along with the memory issue. This just isn't what we've seen in Fallout games. SuperMutant makes more sense as a class than a race. First off, it's mutually exclusive with other classes: how could you have a SuperMutant BoS Knight? I suppose you could but that's not really kosher to Fallout. Second, all SuperMutants tend to be one thing and one thing only: some kind of gun-toting warrior. And as they get older (i.e., as they level) they seem to get better at being gun-toting warriors. Their "SuperMutant-ness," in other words, seems to be increasing.

Manchu wrote:First off, it's mutually exclusive with other classes: how could you have a SuperMutant BoS Knight?

The Enclave had Frank Horrigan in Fallout 2, which is their version of a super mutant BoS Knight.

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Frank_Horrigan

But the Enclave and the BoS have absolutely nothing to do with each other. As C.A.F. was trying to point out above, we're talking about a RPG. (And, C.A.F., here's you example already!) Anyway, Horrigan is so unique that he'd be better represented as a monster than as something you could build with classes and races.

I see the enclave and BoS are two sides of the same coin, but I understand where you are coming from.

There are Nightkin, which are a type of super mutant, and does make whether or not a super mutant be a class or race a bit more of a grey area.

Myself I think it would make more sense for ghouls and super mutants to be a race rather then a class.

I still like the idea of being able to transform into either one though. Some sort of exp, skill and stat sacrifice to go through the change.

This is a difficult case. We usually think of class progression as the result of training and experience. In the case of SuperMutants, class progression is the result of the FEV-initiated processes of becoming a particular kind of warrior (cf., the difference between a barbarian and a fighter). Similarly, Nightkin are the result of FEV-II dipping and the use of stealthboys (which makes them purple and stupid). Nightkin would be harder to handle as a class (or a race) and are probably better left entirely as monsters.

Ghouls make more sense as a race or as a template (what AvatarForm meant by "progression"?) added to a pre-existent human PC. Personally, I think making them a race is more pragmatic so that you don't have to worry about level adjustments.

Nightkin are smarter than normal supermutants actually, just totally mad.

Yeah but it's a result of using stealthboys, not a matter of the FEV-II dipping. So what if you wanted to play a Nightkin that never used stealthboys? You'd be sane, smart, and green. That means you get all the advantages of a SuperMutant and none of the disadvantages (unless we start talking about level adjustment). See what I mean about this being better as a monster rather than class and/or race?

Manchu wrote:Yeah but it's a result of using stealthboys, not a matter of the FEV-II dipping. So what if you wanted to play a Nightkin that never used stealthboys? You'd be sane, smart, and green. That means you get all the advantages of a SuperMutant and none of the disadvantages (unless we start talking about level adjustment). See what I mean about this being better as a monster rather than class and/or race?

I thought that nightkin were also addicted to the use of stealthboys? So sure you could not use stealthboys but you would have to deal with the withdrawel mechanics.

Nightkin are not addicted to use of stealthboys from the start; like anything else, they become addicted with use. And of course they're not necessarily "addicted" in a literal sense. They're just insane and have a massive neurosis regarding being seen.

Very true.

Though again I suppose it loops back to the roleplaying thing, if you want to roleplay a human you will ignore all of the benefits of playing smart super mutant and be human.

Yeah, but it may be best not to design a way for people to play smart SuperMutants wearing power armor.

Well if you remember that the super mutant race was only aestetics, a few modifiers/ resistances and a state of mind it doesn't hurt to have smart supermutants. Also in what cheese has posted so far there isn't actually a way to just pick "smart supermutant" whether it is a different generation of super mutant like Marcus or a night kin.

However I could play as a nightkin by spending most of my points on Intelligence and Agility then constantly using stealth boys.

By the same token I could just play as a normal dumb supermutant by leaving my Int low and focusing on strength and endurance.

Manchu wrote:

AvatarForm wrote:How is this difficult to understand?

What's difficult is understanding the distinction you're drawing between leveling and progression (since you didn't explain it). Assuming C.A.F. understood you correctly, you're just talking about an element of story that would probably be covered by adding a template. Now that could work and be fluffy, as long as the player goes along with the memory issue. This just isn't what we've seen in Fallout games. SuperMutant makes more sense as a class than a race. First off, it's mutually exclusive with other classes: how could you have a SuperMutant BoS Knight? I suppose you could but that's not really kosher to Fallout. Second, all SuperMutants tend to be one thing and one thing only: some kind of gun-toting warrior. And as they get older (i.e., as they level) they seem to get better at being gun-toting warriors. Their "SuperMutant-ness," in other words, seems to be increasing.

Nope.

Progression and Levelling have clearly different meanings. Whether you define them in-universe RPG or with an English Language dictionary.

Why would it need explanation to anyone?

Your concept of Super-Mutant is flawed and indicates that you are not familiar with most of the FallOut canon.

Super-Mutants are the result of the FEV, but no cases are known of them beign born this way... they are all humans subjected to the FEV, however, there is no canon which directly states that ghouls and other races would not be affected.

AvatarForm wrote:Progression and Levelling have clearly different meanings. Whether you define them in-universe RPG or with an English Language dictionary.

Why would it need explanation to anyone?

So you're still not going to address it? That's a bit trollish.

It seems to me that leveling is a form of progression. But you seem to be saying that this is not the case; that progression is something entirely different from leveling. I don't know if you have been sworn to secrecy on this point or something but how about you just take a moment to clearly explain what you're actually talking about. Maybe it will help if I tell you that a progression, in the context of d20 games, usually refers to the development of abilities over levels. For example, the increase of the number of spells a wizard can cast per day as s/he levels is called a spell progression.

AvatarForm wrote:Your concept of Super-Mutant is flawed and indicates that you are not familiar with most of the FallOut canon.

Nowhere did I suggest that SuperMutants are born as SuperMutants. I don't think you have understood much of what I've posted, maybe because you're not very familiar with pen-and-paper rpgs. So let's start again.

The issue is whether, in a d20-based system, SuperMutants should be a race or a class (or something else).

The relevant fluff points are:

- Most basically, SuperMutants are created by exposing humans into FEV or (in the case of the Capital Wasteland) a modified version of FEV.
- The result of this process (without regard to the unproven theories of the Master or Lou) is a large, yellow/green-skinned, physically strong but mentally deficient humanoid. (Again, it's uncertain as to why Lou and certain others like Fawkes remained intelligent.)
- Nightkin are created by dipping humans into FEV-II.
- The Nightkin are more likely to be smarter and more skilled than other SuperMutants, especially those in the Capital Wasteland. Their use of stealthboys, however, has driven them insane and turned their skin purplish-blue.
- Exposure to FEV in other creatures causes mutation but not mutation into SuperMutants. Exposing a human to FEV, however, will not necessarily result in a SuperMutant.
- Some strains of FEV are totally lethal to anything that is already subject to viral mutation or radiation.
- With very few exceptions, SuperMutants all seem to be warriors.

There's a lot to recommend making SuperMutants a basic race, like human or ghoul. For example, this would help ensure that all SuperMutant characters were adequately strong and dumb (via strength and intelligence modifiers - although the way Cheesecat has it now, you wouldn't necessarily have an exceptionally stupid or strong SuperMutant). This does not, however, account for the transition from human to SuperMutant. One could instead use a template added to humans with appropriate modifiers. The drawback there is that using templates create complication with level adjustments and Effective Levels.

So SuperMutants could be a class. A first level class feature would involve modifying whatever STR and INT stats you rolled. You would become a better SuperMutant warrior (as opposed to a generic human warrior) over time. This could also cover the transition because one could multiclass into it -- although that would take some fine-tuning to prevent min/maxing. As has already been pointed out, somebody will likely want to play Frank Horrigan -- which would be totally imbalanced through most of the levels.

Why isn't it possible for you to change race?

Surely at a point in the game you could be exposed to FEV and become a super mutant (as memories are wiped and the physiology is very different this is much like killing off the first character and making a new but slightly similar one of a different race).

As for ghouls, as far as I know it is possible to die in D&D and then be raised by some form of necromancy as a sapient zombie so surely the same thing applies to becoming a ghoul?

Let's make sure we are talking about mechanics and story elements separately.

Story-wise, a human can become a SuperMutant when exposed to FEV.

Mechanics-wise, you can't just change race mid-game. The closest you can come to this in d20 games is applying a racial template to a character.

Does that make sense?

Onwards: Ghouls aren't undead and a traditional D&D undead template makes no sense for them. They should be a basic race or be humans with a template added.