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And the US has remained very firmly a republic.



Meh, as far as the US goes, the tea party is representative of a lot of what's wrong with US politics to begin with. Most of them are too hot-headed to compromise, and they frequently attempt to demonize not only the democrats, but any republicans that themselves want to try to compromise.

Could we say that Real Democracy is a utopian idea that can never be fully realized, or is that too shortsighted a statement to make?

If we want to go to extreme definitions where all people get equal voting, equal representation, equal input and crafting of laws that affect them all, then no true democracy could exist without 100% active participation and no republican or representative investment by the people to one person/elect others or have influence over the way laege blocs of people vote and take away some participation in the democratic process.


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Melissia wrote:And the US has remained very firmly a republic.



Meh, as far as the US goes, the tea party is representative of a lot of what's wrong with US politics to begin with. Most of them are too hot-headed to compromise, and they frequently attempt to demonize not only the democrats, but any republicans that themselves want to try to compromise.

The Tea Party is akin to the Know Nothings and other narrow view parties in which they have one predominant message that once addressed by the main parties in power will eventually subside.

What the Tea Party has to do is stretch their hands across the political landscape and attempt to form a stronger union with other like-minded ideas other than the reduction of government and lower taxes. Perhaps champion other causes that can galvanize their base and try to upend the Republican Party.

WarOne wrote:Could we say that Real Democracy is a utopian idea that can never be fully realized, or is that too shortsighted a statement to make?

If we want to go to extreme definitions where all people get equal voting, equal representation, equal input and crafting of laws that affect them all, then no true democracy could exist without 100% active participation and no republican or representative investment by the people to one person/elect others or have influence over the way laege blocs of people vote and take away some participation in the democratic process.

Well, in political science the minimal definition of "democracy" is any state that has relatively free and fair elections.

dogma wrote:

WarOne wrote:Could we say that Real Democracy is a utopian idea that can never be fully realized, or is that too shortsighted a statement to make?

If we want to go to extreme definitions where all people get equal voting, equal representation, equal input and crafting of laws that affect them all, then no true democracy could exist without 100% active participation and no republican or representative investment by the people to one person/elect others or have influence over the way laege blocs of people vote and take away some participation in the democratic process.

Well, in political science the minimal definition of "democracy" is any state that has relatively free and fair elections.

So what do we mean by a "true/real democracy" then (or the extreme end of what democratic/democracy means)? Give me several definitions if they exist across different disciplines if possible so we know what language to use here.

I assume, perhaps incorrectly, that people who criticize the current arrangements are against representative democracy and want an Athenian type of democracy in which all government decisions are debated and voted on by all the eligible adults.

WarOne wrote:Could we say that Real Democracy is a utopian idea that can never be fully realized, or is that too shortsighted a statement to make?

If we want to go to extreme definitions where all people get equal voting, equal representation, equal input and crafting of laws that affect them all, then no true democracy could exist without 100% active participation and no republican or representative investment by the people to one person/elect others or have influence over the way laege blocs of people vote and take away some participation in the democratic process.

I dont think that were doing too badly anyway are we? I mean, sure we get pissed off about little things, but at the end of the day, everyones getting fed, keeping warm, and in my case, has an unending supply of booze and minis despite being only working class.

It IS a utopia!

WarOne wrote:
So what do we mean by a "true/real democracy" then (or the extreme end of what democratic/democracy means)? Give me several definitions if they exist across different disciplines if possible so we know what language to use here.

Well, what constitutes an ideal democracy is basically just going to come down to preferred. For example, Fraz will periodically dismiss nations as being undemocratic because they aren't liberal democracies (my interpretation of his words, not a direct quote).

Personally, I don't think there is an ideal form of any type of government, not in the sense that we can objectively agree that X is the ideal form of Y (this stems from my general interpretation of ideals as being inherently subjective).

If you want a definition that broadly reads as "democracy" then the idea of free and fair elections is a good, and popular, place to start. Alternatively you can posit that democracy turns on having a relatively equal say in the political process. Or, if you're an anarchist, you can posit that democracy, and really fair governance as a whole, really only exists when people are direct, consenting parties to their own direction (so,things like communes, small towns, etc.).

What democracy actually is happens to be a pretty contentious idea, as does its status as an empirical good (though this last bit is less often questioned in American academia).

mattyrm wrote:I dont think that were doing too badly anyway are we? I mean, sure we get pissed off about little things, but at the end of the day, everyones getting fed, keeping warm, and in my case, has an unending supply of booze and minis despite being only working class.

It IS a utopia!

I wouldn't call it a Utopia, but it is bloody lovely for the most part.