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Who's got the Razorback? It can only fit 6 guys in.
I would split them too two 5 Man.

drop the camo cloaks, main faq:

Q: If only some of the models in a unit have the Stealth
special rule, does the whole unit benefit from the +1 cover
save? (p76)
A: Yes. In effect the ones with the Stealth special rule
ensure their colleagues also find good places to hide.

make telion effectivly cheaper and gives you acute scences, thats a bargain

edit: also upgrade your chaplain to cassius, T6 FNP and a master crafted combi-flamer for a few extra points, yes please

InquisitorVaron wrote:Who's got the Razorback? It can only fit 6 guys in.
I would split them too two 5 Man.

You can deploy them as combat squads. And the 4 bolters plus the flamer will take the razorback with the chaplain.

James100 wrote:drop the camo cloaks, main faq:

Q: If only some of the models in a unit have the Stealth
special rule, does the whole unit benefit from the +1 cover
save? (p76)
A: Yes. In effect the ones with the Stealth special rule
ensure their colleagues also find good places to hide.

make telion effectivly cheaper and gives you acute scences, thats a bargain

edit: also upgrade your chaplain to cassius, T6 FNP and a master crafted combi-flamer for a few extra points, yes please

Thanks mate! Can you link me the FAQ? I'm desperate to see it!
Oooh Cassius is a great idea! But where to drop the points... ?

HQ
Chaplain Cassius: - 125pts
Troops
Tacticals(x10): Flamer/Missile Launcher/Sergeant Chainsword - 170pts
+Razorback: Twin-Linked Assault Cannon - 75pts
Scouts(x5): Telion/3 Sniper Rifles/Missile Launcher - 135pts
Total
505pts

The Scout Missile Launcher could be dropped but Telion makes it really useful!
5pts to find, any ideas?
Thanks guys!

I would drop the assault cannon personally - you pay almost as much for another razorback, with the spare 30 points you get from it i suggest upgrading the sergent's chainsword to a powerfist and upgrading the flamer to a meltagun, so:

HQ
Chaplain Cassius: - 125pts
Troops
Tacticals(x10): Meltagun/Missile Launcher/Sergeant Power Fist - 170pts
+Razorback: Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter - 40pts
Scouts(x5): Telion/3 Sniper Rifles/Missile Launcher - 135pts
Total
500pts

so you have:
2 missile launchers - for hordes and tanks
3 snipers for light tanks/big monsters
telions boltgun for light tanks/infantry
TL heavy bolter for extra horde ownage
cassius's flamer for hordes/normal bolts for big monsters
power fist for tanks
meltagun for tanks
7 boltguns for anti-horde

Thanks man, i found the FAQ as well!

So has anyone got any issues with this list?

HQ
Chaplain Cassius: - 125pts
Troops
Tacticals(x10): Meltagun/Missile Launcher/Power Fist - 200pts
+Razorback: - 40pts
Scouts(x5): Telion/3 Sniper Rifles/Missile Launcher - 135pts
Total
500pts

Speak now or forever hold your peace! I may be buying parts soon!

I apologize in advance for highjacking your thread and for asking a noobish question. If Telion grants the stealth special rule to the squad he's attached to, then by that logic does Cassius's FNP rule transfer to the squad that he is attached to as well? Thanks.

I have a fluffy army myself, and I like it. It doesn't really do too well on the board but it is enjoyable and they look pretty while they die.

I think for 500 pts you have a rather solid force. Against hordes, you will get your biologically enhanced ass handed to you. But against MEQ you could most likely hold their own.

-cgmckenzie

sub-zero wrote:I apologize in advance for highjacking your thread and for asking a noobish question. If Telion grants the stealth special rule to the squad he's attached to, then by that logic does Cassius's FNP rule transfer to the squad that he is attached to as well? Thanks.

Hey man, i wouldn't call it highjacking or being noobish mate.
Telion grants Stealth because he can physically tell people where to hide. And its in the FAQ.
Cassius doesn't grant FNP because it is part of his will power or physical body. Probably all his bionics! He couldn't pass on this ability because its part of him. Does that make sense? Oh and neither the BRB or the FAQ say that it can be passed on.
BRB - P75
FAQ - http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=1000018&pIndex=1&aId=3400019&multiPageMode=true&start=2

cgmckenzie wrote:I have a fluffy army myself, and I like it. It doesn't really do too well on the board but it is enjoyable and they look pretty while they die.

Haha! Love it! That's exactly what my fully converted Chaos army is like.

cgmckenzie wrote:I think for 500 pts you have a rather solid force. Against hordes, you will get your biologically enhanced ass handed to you. But against MEQ you could most likely hold their own.

-cgmckenzie

I think i agree, it's taken a long while and a lot of input to get this list but i think its done! If i expand the force i will be adding a Devastator squad of 5 with 4 Missile Launchers for some serious anti horde/tank.

My main army I am focusing on now is a blob IG, so I would love to go against this!

I can field a platoon with 50 in a blob, a veteran squad, and a CCS for 500 pts. If we are playing objective, my goal will be to simply bog you down while holding as much obj as possible. You can't possibly kill 50 guardsmen in a single round of shooting or CC but my shots/hits on you hurt far more than yours on me.

-cgmckenzie

Yeh a horde like that would destroy these guys. I personally prefer CSM for low point games.

I really wanna try out a CSM 'horde,' if you can call it that. 10 CSMs in a rhino with upgrades, call it 200pts maximum take 5 Squads and your at 50 mobile MEQs that can do great damage at mid range and in CC all for under 1000pts. Take another 500pts of specialists/HQ/tanks and i call that a deadly force to match any army.

Looking for some input on which models to use. As i mentioned before(i think), i want my Marines to wear bleached bone armour with chaos black trimming. Maybe red as detailing? Not sure about the red though... too easy maybe. And i want them to wear orange/brown monk robes/tabards.

I'm not sure whether to buy the DA chapter upgrade or the BT chapter upgrade, or both? I'm not sure if mixing them will look right.
With the DA robes they will look more like monks but i really want the armour to be the main colour.

Also, is there enough components in these packs to make a few marines without buying a tactical squad? I only need 10 men and a Chaplain.

Lastly, any models that would make a good Chaplain thats been around a long time? I really want a skull helm. I like the Legion of the Damned Sgt but does he only come in the set of 5?

Thanks in advance for the help...

I remember there being a Space Marine armor painter on the Bolter and Chainsword or something. Try that out first.

Yeh there is thanks. I used it but theres no DA robes or BT tabards...

I'm sure there was another one where you can add accessories, including tabards.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you used this one: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/smpbeta.php
And went to wargear, you'll find a tabard.

Thanks so much. I'll get back to you on how it goes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Went well and looked great. Do you think the DA and BT models will mix well though? And are there enough components to build some models straight out of the upgrade kits?

I'm personally not a fan of DA hoods. Tabards sound fine though.

Considering dropping Telion and the Scouts for a more competitive force. As the SM codex isn't very competitive at 500pts then i may use the BA or even CSM codex. I don't have the BA codex yet so i don't know how i would do that. With respect to CSM i would make the Chaplain my Chaos Lord and have his loyal followers not quite realising that hes gone to the dark side. Then again maybe Chaos Lords are competitive?

I would really like it if someone could show me what highly competitive lists are like at 500pts for BA and CSM! Thanks.

I think you are missing a trick with your chaplain - one of the best value characters in the Space Marine codex is Cassius. For just 25pts more than a stock chaplain he gives you sooooooo much more! Plus he fits into your narrative as he has been beaten to pulp and come back.

Definately go for the dakka predator at this point level - it pumps out 8 decent strenght shots and you are unlikley to come up against much armour or too high toughness MCs.

You need 2 troops choices though I am not sold on Telion, he is a "nice to have" though Cassius gives much more.

How about:-

Cassius (125pts)
-5 marine tactical squad + combi-weapon (100pts)
-Razorback (40pts)

5 Scouts + Telion upgrade + 4 camo cloaks + missile launcher + 4 sniper rifles (147pts)

Predator + heavy bolter sponsons (85pts)

TOTAL = 497pts

This is what I used to run at 500pts tournies with my Iron Hands and I always placed top 3.

Hope that helps.

~BB~

Well, British Bulldog, you've wasted a few points. You don't need the camo cloaks because Telion grants the whole squad stealth anyway.

LostSoulCasey'sLaw wrote:HQ
Chaplain Cassius: - 125pts
Troops
Tacticals(x10): Meltagun/Missile Launcher/Power Fist - 200pts
+Razorback: - 40pts
Scouts(x5): Telion/3 Sniper Rifles/Missile Launcher - 135pts
Total
500pts

Quoted from higher up the page. This is the list i chose in the end.

LostSoulCasey'sLaw wrote:Considering dropping Telion and the Scouts for a more competitive force. As the SM codex isn't very competitive at 500pts then i may use the BA or even CSM codex. I don't have the BA codex yet so i don't know how i would do that. With respect to CSM i would make the Chaplain my Chaos Lord and have his loyal followers not quite realising that hes gone to the dark side. Then again maybe Chaos Lords are competitive?

I would really like it if someone could show me what highly competitive lists are like at 500pts for BA and CSM! Thanks.

My last post. As you can see i am now considering a highly competitive list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just to make it as simple as possible, i would like to be shown highly competitive lists for a 500pt army led by a zealous Chaplain. I will happily make them CSM, in fact, i am leaning towards it. But who is most competitive?

I figure Tanks are of paramount importance in a game winning list these days. I tried out 2 squads of CSM in Rhinos and 2 predators but Preds are more expensive for CSM than SM and it doesn't fit in points.Heres a BA list that might be competitive at 500pts.
Reclusiarch - 130pts
Assault Squad - 155pts
5 Marines
Razorback
Twin-Linked Assault Cannon
Assault Squad - 170pts
5 Marines
Sergeants Lightning Claw
Razorback
Twin-Linked Assault Cannon
Baal Predator -115pts
Devastator Squad - 180pts
5 Marines
4 Missile Launchers
Rhino
Total - 750pts
I could not make it work for BA at 500pts(i really don't know what to do). So i went with 750pts... *sigh* Please help!!

500 Points - Here's how you can 'make it work'. Librarian is vastly superior to the Chaplain. Unleash Rage replaces Liturgies of Blood - only better, as it lends you the re-roll irrespective of whether you, or your opponent, initiates the charge. As a tasty little bonus, The Sanguine Sword boosts him to S10. Instead of wasting a bunch of points on Assault Cannons, the Razorbacks keep their Heavy Bolters. They're also equipped with Dozer Blades to negate that pressurised DT roll. Flamers are for toasting people, especially those in cover. They'll eat through anything less than a Space Marine. You still have your Missile Launchers for dedicated anti-tank, or even anti-horde - a volley of Krak Missiles will cut down any massed infantry.

Librarian - 100
- Unleash Rage, The Sanguine Sword

Assault Squad - 130
- Flamer, Razorback, Dozer Blade
Assault Squad - 130
- Flamer, Razorback, Dozer Blade

Devastators - 130
- 4 Missile Launchers

at 500 points regardless of which codex you use, i think a dakka pred is better than devs (stationary) and vindis (unreliable)

with points saved add TL AC or las/plas to the razorback and get a melta in that tac squad!

Popsicle wrote:500 Points - Here's how you can 'make it work'. Librarian is vastly superior to the Chaplain. Unleash Rage replaces Liturgies of Blood - only better, as it lends you the re-roll irrespective of whether you, or your opponent, initiates the charge. As a tasty little bonus, The Sanguine Sword boosts him to S10. Instead of wasting a bunch of points on Assault Cannons, the Razorbacks keep their Heavy Bolters. They're also equipped with Dozer Blades to negate that pressurised DT roll. Flamers are for toasting people, especially those in cover. They'll eat through anything less than a Space Marine. You still have your Missile Launchers for dedicated anti-tank, or even anti-horde - a volley of Krak Missiles will cut down any massed infantry.

Librarian - 100
- Unleash Rage, The Sanguine Sword

Assault Squad - 130
- Flamer, Razorback, Dozer Blade
Assault Squad - 130
- Flamer, Razorback, Dozer Blade

Devastators - 130
- 4 Missile Launchers

Deuce11 wrote:at 500 points regardless of which codex you use, i think a dakka pred is better than devs (stationary) and vindis (unreliable)

with points saved add TL AC or las/plas to the razorback and get a melta in that tac squad!

Thanks guys. Firstly in regards to the Librarian. The quite restrictive fluff i originally wrote for the army required a Chaplain and Telion. I now only require a Chaplain as i am planning on altering it. They are both 100pts so its not hard to swap them out for each other in a list anyway. I am aware the Librarian is a better choice though.
With the Razorbacks i am slanting towards agreeing with Popsicle. The TL AC might be a little expensive for something a heavy bolter could pop open... I guess that gives me another reason to leave the heavy bolters too. Anyone taking similar forces in rhinos could be popped open by my own transports on the move.
I completely agree with Deuce11 on the meltas actually, i need to find a place for them. Although i'm not sure what list you were reading when you said tactical squad.
None of the codex seem to work too well at 500pts with a Chaplain but i'll persevere with a BA and a CSM list.
Back soon with something...

Get a job in GW. The discounts will help negate their ridiculous price rises. What are they, like, weekly now?

Both lists are not bad. I'd lean towards the first, personally, but it's worth trying both to see which suits you better.

Man. Am absolutely daen that on Monday. They never seem to be looking for staff when i'm in but!

Yeh slightly drunk. I'll hammer out a couple of possible lists after this weekend.

Hey, so i've finally sobered up and i'm going to have another bash at the list. Or that was the plan. I'm really losing my rag with it. I have decided to do comparisons on some of the units to help me... First up, Predators!

Predators
Chaos Space Marines
2nd. Chaos Predator - Autocannon = 70pts + Heavy Bolter Sponsons = 100pts
Blood Angels Space Marines
3rd. Baal Predator - Twin-Linked Assault Cannon = 115pts + Heavy Bolter Sponsons = 145pts + Scouts
2nd. Predator - Autocannon = 70pts + Heavy Bolter Sponsons = 100pts
Vanilla Space Marines
1st. Predator - Autocannon = 60pts + Heavy Bolter Sponsons = 85pts

First things first! The Baal Pred flame weapons aren't going to be vanilla enough to be competitive so they are out(i have deleted them above). In fact the Baal is coming in at just under double the cost of a VSM Pred, sure it has a preferable weapon but points are tight. Baal just wont cut the mustard here.
The BASM and CSM Preds are almost identical and take a deserved joint second place here but the VSM Pred takes the gold by a fair distance.

Heavy Weapon Specialists
Chaos Space Marines
2nd. 5 Chaos Havocs = 75pts + 4 Missile Launchers = 155pts + Close Combat Capabilities
Blood Angels Space Marines
1st. 5 Devastators = 90pts + 4 Missile Launchers = 130pts + 1ML with BS5
Vanilla Space Marines
3rd. 5 Devastators = 90pts + 4 Missile Launchers = 150pts + 1ML with BS5

I'd personally say that the cheaper BASM Devs win this one but this isn't as clear cut as the Preds. The VSMs are slightly cheaper than the CSMs but they are more specialized. As nice as a model with BS5 is it doesn't really compare to a squad that can whip out close combat weapons and put up a more than impressive assault. For these reasons i think the Havs get 2nd place.

Chaplains
Chaos Space Marines
3rd. Chaos Lord = 90pts + Mark of Khorne/Daemon Weapon = 140pts + Jump Pack = 160pts
Blood Angels Space Marines
2nd. Reclusiarch = 130pts
Vanilla Space Marines
1st. Space Marine Chaplain = 100pts
2nd. Chaplain Cassius = 125pts

This is a tough one to call as its the only part where i am now including my own fluff. In my most honest opinion, Cassius and the Reclusiarch are very equal here. They both have great extras but manage to be very different. The VSM Chappy is great for a such a compact list too. The Chaos Lord is a hard one to judge. He is a huge wildcard. He could take double his points value and keep hacking away, or he could fall before he even gets to fight. Hmmm, this is hard... Okay, so they all have good and bad points but i'd happily take any of them, all for different reasons. I've graded them but i'm not scoring any out. Despite coming in 3rd my real favourite is the Lord for fluff reasons.

Dedicated Transports
Chaos Space Marines
4th. Chaos Rhino - Twin-Linked Bolter = 35pts + Havoc Launcher = 50pts
Blood Angels Space Marines
2nd. Rhino - Storm Bolter = 50pts + Possible 35pt Discount
1st. Razorback - Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter = 55pts + Twin-Linked Assault Cannon = 90pts + Possible 35pt Discount
5th. Drop Pod - Storm Bolter = 35pts + Deathwind Missile Launcher = 55pts + Possible 35pt Discount
Vanilla Space Marines
3rd. Rhino - Storm Bolter = 35pts
1st. Razorback - Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter = 40pts + Twin-Linked Assault Cannon = 75pts
5th. Drop Pod - Storm Bolter = 35pts + Deathwind Missile Launcher = 55pts

Firstly the CSMs only have 1 option and its not even as good as the other Rhino patterns, it's only redeeming factor is the HL and even that is so-so. The BASM Rhino and Razorback patterns appear far too expensive although a 35pt discount may be available. The VSM Razorback is the cheapest and well worth considering. As for Razorbacks with Twin-Linked Assault Cannons, well, a S5 weapon can pop it open. Drop Pods are difficult to use at 500pts due to waiting on reserves and not being able to use combat squads. But they may become free for the BASM. DMLs might be good if i plan on Deep Striking assault troops.

With foot slogging heavy weapons, tanks and HQ dealt with, and now the all important dedicated transports its time to look at troops. The core of your army is even more important at 500pts so they have to be the correct choice.

Troops
Chaos Space Marines
1st. 5 Chaos Space Marines = 75pts + 5 Chaos Space Marines = 150pts + Meltagun/Missile Launcher = 170pts
5th. 5 Khorne Berzerkers = 105pts
4th. (Not Troops)5 Raptors = 100pts + Meltagun/Meltagun = 120pts
Blood Angels Space Marines
2nd. 5 Space Marines = 90pts + 5 Space Marines = 170pts + Meltagun/Missile Launcher = 175pts
3rd. 5 Scouts = 75pts + 5 Scouts = 140pts + Missile Launcher = 150pts
2nd. 5 Assault Marines = 100pts + 5 Assault Marines = 190pts + Meltagun/Meltagun = 210pts + Discounted Transport if Jump Packs Removed
Vanilla Space Marines
2nd. 5 Space Marines = 90pts + 5 Space Marines = 170pts + Meltagun/Missile Launcher = 175pts
3rd. 5 Scouts = 75pts + 5 Scouts = 140pts + Missile Launcher = 150pts


Thats the comparisons dealt with. Hopefully i can put together lists easily now. If not i'm sure someone will find this useful someday.
Its getting late. If i get any lists done tonight i will append them to this post. Thanks for reading.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Okay, time to attempt some rough army lists. First up, Chaos Space Marines...

Chaos Space Marines
Chaos Lord + Mark of Khorne/Daemon Weapon/Melta Bombs = 145pts
5 Chaos Space Marines + Meltagun = 85pts
Chaos Rhino + Havoc Launcher = 50pts
5 Chaos Space Marines + Meltagun = 85pts
Chaos Rhino = 35pts
Chaos Predator + Heavy Bolter Sponsons = 100pts
Total = 500pts

Man this is easier... Next up...

Blood Angels Space Marines 1
Reclusiarch + Melta Bombs = 135pts
5 Assault Marines + Meltagun/Melta Bombs = 115pts
Razorback = 20pts
5 Assault Marines + Meltagun = 110pts
Razorback = 20pts
Predator + Heavy Bolter Sponsons = 100pts
Total = 500pts

Blood Angels Space Marines 2
Reclusiarch = 130pts
5 Assault Marines = 100pts
Razorback = 20pts
5 Assault Marines = 100pts
Razorback = 20pts
5 Devastators + 4 Missile Launchers = 130pts
Total = 500pts

The Devs pack some serious heat but i'll lose mobility and... vanillaness? across the army. They might be better as an addition if i increase the points later. Lets check out the blandest of the bland next, they should be able to come up with something!

Vanilla Space Marines 1
Chaplain Cassius = 125pts
5 Space Marines + Combi Melta/Melta Bombs = 105pts
Razorback = 40pts
5 Space Marines + Combi Melta/Melta Bombs = 105pts
Razorback = 40pts
Predator + Heavy Bolter Sponsons = 85pts
Total = 500pts

Vanilla Space Marines 2
Space Marine Chaplain = 100pts
5 Space Marines + Combi Melta = 100pts
Razorback = 40pts
5 Scouts + Camo Cloaks = 90pts
Predator + Heavy Bolter Sponsons = 85pts
Predator + Heavy Bolter Sponsons = 85pts
Total = 500pts

The last one is interesting but quite 'out there.' I sacrificed an already small number of marines but replaced them with scouts who can do an okay job as well. In turn though i get 2 Predators!
5 lists to think over. Which do you think is the best?

Blood Angels Space Marines 1
Reclusiarch + Melta Bombs = 135pts
5 Assault Marines + Meltagun/Melta Bombs = 115pts
Razorback = 20pts
5 Assault Marines + Meltagun = 110pts
Razorback = 20pts
Predator + Heavy Bolter Sponsons = 100pts
Total = 500pts

I think this is the most competitive list from the group, it's probably the one i'll go with... <sigh> It's taken far too long for something so simple!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On second thoughts i'll swap out those Meltaguns and Melta Bombs for Infernus Pistols. I lose some range but as long as the Emperors sacred METAL BAWKSES survive for a while i'll get there. Plus it means i get proper use of the close combat capabilities and the Reclusiarchs BS.

Blood Angels Space Marines 1
Reclusiarch + Infernus Pistol = 145pts
5 Assault Marines + Infernus Pistol = 115pts
Razorback = 20pts
5 Assault Marines = 100pts
Razorback = 20pts
Predator + Heavy Bolter Sponsons = 100pts
Total = 500pts

My only real worry now is Terminators and similar. I guess if i can keep mobile then i can stay out of there way until the tanks deal with them. And if need be those Infernus Pistols and a well timed charge will put up a great fight.