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Glade Guard, at short range, would need...24 shots to drop it. Considering that's one of the best missile troops, stat-wise, I think that's okay. At long range, they'd need 72 shots.

I'm not sure if I understand what it's "best use" is, that can be negated by rallying troops. Charging fleeing units, maybe? That's one of it's uses, but I don't think it's the main one.

The 'Copter doesn't have one thing that it's for. It can lay down a flame template on Horde units. It can bait charges with relative success. If you do it right, it can remove that little window of movement that a unit can safely flee to, resulting in insta-death.
It's got a lot of uses, just none that are truly amazing. But that's Dwarfs, for you. They are slow, but other than that, the army tries to shore up its other weaknesses.

Warpsolution wrote:Glade Guard, at short range, would need...24 shots to drop it. Considering that's one of the best missile troops, stat-wise, I think that's okay. At long range, they'd need 72 shots.

I'm not sure if I understand what it's "best use" is, that can be negated by rallying troops. Charging fleeing units, maybe? That's one of it's uses, but I don't think it's the main one.

The 'Copter doesn't have one thing that it's for. It can lay down a flame template on Horde units. It can bait charges with relative success. If you do it right, it can remove that little window of movement that a unit can safely flee to, resulting in insta-death.
It's got a lot of uses, just none that are truly amazing. But that's Dwarfs, for you. They are slow, but other than that, the army tries to shore up its other weaknesses.

Fair enough about small arms fire, I was also thinking of items like Lead Belchers, but that shot (s4 ap) isnt exactly "small." Still, far too expensive a piece to get dropped by a single warmachine shot or fast cav charge on a whim. And for something that is sub par at everything, 140 pts is too much. Sorta like a flame cannon. I'd rather take Miners.

Well, I mean, Lead Belchers are...terrible. And while getting 1-shotted by a cannon is rough...that's a risk that all single models take. And 140pts is much better than basically any other.
Fast cavalry could be a problem, I suppose. But careful maneuvering should help (it can fly, after all. Unless someone's running a ton o' fast cavalry...).

Being sorta' good at a bunch of stuff isn't bad at all. Lower risk, lower reward. The Flame Cannon doesn't just cost too much; it's terrible. Miners are good, sure, but not nearly as versatile. And you'd get, what, 13ish of them for the 'Copter? They both have their place.

I suppose I'd look at it this way: is a Great Eagle worth 50pts? Is a 'Copter as good as ~3 Eagles? I think it's safe to say yes, but that it's just...awkward.

No, I didn't say sorta good. I said sub par. Which really means below average. I might say average is "sorta good." But below average is not good at all. Imagine a great eagle. It is 50 pts. now add a breath weapon to it. Remove the ability to use the BW in CC. Now remove it's ability to thunderstomp. How much more would you pay for that? It you said 20-25 pts, I might agree with you. If you said 90 pts, you would have a gyrocopter.

Other than a new model? Well, they could take the old fallapart metal model and reproduce it in some sort of super high-detailed resin.

That would be awesome. B)

I know what you meant by "sub par"; I just think you're mistaken. It's got a lot of potential.

1. Great Eagles don't Thunderstomp.
2. How about an Eagle with an extra wound, T5, some armour, and a template you can use every turn? Could look at it that way, after all.
So it's not good at CC. So what? That's not what it's for.

Mainly, though, it's a flying unit in an army that can march 6" otherwise.

Is it great? No. It's clunky and weird.
Is it not good at all though? Certainly not. Ask Red Zeke or any other player who've had great success with it.

The gyrocopter has just taken a blow from march blocking being made less effective in 8th ed. Bring back the old march blocking way, that's how to make it better.

I'm glad that's it's been included in the Finecast range, the only problem being is that it's pretty much double the price...

Nagashek wrote:No, I didn't say sorta good. I said sub par. Which really means below average. I might say average is "sorta good." But below average is not good at all. Imagine a great eagle. It is 50 pts. now add a breath weapon to it. Remove the ability to use the BW in CC. Now remove it's ability to thunderstomp. How much more would you pay for that? It you said 20-25 pts, I might agree with you. If you said 90 pts, you would have a gyrocopter.

Great eagles stomp, not thunder stomp. But they don't really stomp either, because stomp is ASL and in my experience, they are dead before the stomp.
Armor, +1 T, +1W, swift reform, and the ability to repeatedly throw out templates is worth 90 points.
Especially in M3 armies.

-Matt

Eldar Own wrote:The gyrocopter has just taken a blow from march blocking being made less effective in 8th ed. Bring back the old march blocking way, that's how to make it better.

I'm glad that's it's been included in the Finecast range, the only problem being is that it's pretty much double the price...

wha?....

Its only gone up £3, with finecast.

Everyone keeps bringing up the movement issue, but what good is movement without something to capitalize on? That's like saying "Usain Bolt joined the Army, and that's great because he's faster than an Abrahms." Yes, but he cant hit hard and doesn't know how to shoot very well, so what good is he when he GETS all the way over there? How much damage does that steam gun even do on average? It can't shoot and march, right? So you have to use your movement to shoot your very close range gun, which you can't shoot the turn you march into a good position to use it. Meaning many targets will have left, or charged you, or shot you. Or, you are going after warmachines, which can't really be hurt with that gun and need to get charged anyway...

I see the use of the Gyro, I really do. It's just too expensive. /grumble

I'm not sure you could up the damage output of the gyrocopter without it just becoming a big, easy target. I'm not sure I'd want it to be much more damaging - that whacky little thing shouldn't be matching the breath weapon of a dragon for damage output.

The best and most sensible approach is just to make it cheaper. A lot cheaper, really.

With its movement at 10" when it wants to shoot, after considering that no small percent of your options will probably be poor ones, I don't think taking away partial hits on it's template would be that crazy. Mainly, it would take big chunks out of horde units. Everything else would get hit a few more times, but due to S3 and their armour, I doubt it would make much of a difference.

Really, though, I think they should just do away with partials to make the rules more streamline. As our veteran Dwarf players have mentioned above; the Gyrocopter can certainly rock as it is.

As far as dragons' breath weapons are concerned...I think it's pretty dumb that they're S2,3, or 4. Number one: it's fire. Fire should, you know, hurt people. Number two: it's dragon fire. That should hurt even more.

Granted, I see why S5 breath weapons aren't slapped onto every dragon ever, but it still bothers me.

A template a round is definately cool, but Dwarfs really already have that ability with their huge assortment of war machines. If they want to smear a horde army they got guns for it and they do it conceivably better.

I don't think gyrocopter is bad, it would be a lot better in another army, though. I could see reducing the cost.

ide give gyrocopters some form of gatling gun. like 6 str 4 AP shots with R24".
or some equivalent shot.

Well that would be awful silly and kind of redundant with the rest of the army and the steam gun already is a machine gun. It's just spraying bullets and ends up being a template.

Yeah everyone thinks it actually shoots steam for some reason lol

Looks good, but wheres the gun?

I started a seperate thread to talk about the concept because I realised after I put the picture up this wasen't the right place to do it so if anyone wants to discuss the design please do so in that other thread. My bad guys

...the template isn't the selling point for the 'Copter. And its close-combat potential should be even less so. It's the maneuverability that's key. For Dwarfs, just being able to put a model down in such a wide area is a huge benefit. Especially now, where catching your enemy is the only reliable way to get their points.

Warpsolution wrote:...the template isn't the selling point for the 'Copter. And its close-combat potential should be even less so. It's the maneuverability that's key. For Dwarfs, just being able to put a model down in such a wide area is a huge benefit. Especially now, where catching your enemy is the only reliable way to get their points.

But mobility with nothing to do when you get there is worthless. Doubly so when you have to rely on the enemy breaking on their turn or not rallying when they have the chance. And if all they are doing is running enemies off the board in those circumstances, then 140pts is still over costed. I'm not disagreeing it HAS value, only that the value is hard to find the points for when you could spend those points on 14 more GW warriors to kill the enemy with.

Nagashek wrote:But mobility with nothing to do when you get there is worthless. Doubly so when you have to rely on the enemy breaking on their turn or not rallying when they have the chance. And if all they are doing is running enemies off the board in those circumstances, then 140pts is still over costed. I'm not disagreeing it HAS value, only that the value is hard to find the points for when you could spend those points on 14 more GW warriors to kill the enemy with.

Exactly, the model has enough damage output for what it is, and is an interesting unit with a useful battlefield role. It's just that it isn't worth 140 points. You could halve that number and you still wouldn't make gyrocopters a must take, so obviously something is off.

I just remembered that the steam tank for Empire was made into a chariot in 8th . . . what do dwarf players think about giving the gyrocopter some of the chariot and/or steam tank rules?

I could see impact hits from the copter blades, and the reverse impact hits the steam tank has as a defense. Not sure about steam points as Dwarfs make things better than the Empire does.

I think that's making things a lot more complicated than they need to be. I'm all for tweaking and tuning, but the less you change, the better.

I'm in the "they're pretty useful" camp. It could be made better, sure, but that goes for a lot of units.

Dwarfs are my girlfriend's primary army, and she gets good use out of her copters. A good rolling round of missile fire can take one out, but the same can be said for a giant or dragon.

If anything, I'd be in the "can march and shoot" camp, or if not that maybe taking down their cost just a little.

A bit necro.