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Could someone with access to their IG codex kindly tell me what the range is for the Inferno cannon? I'm at work right now. :(

daedalus wrote:Aglobalthreat:

Are you really arguing that you MOVE the template after it is placed? What basis in the rules is there for that? Look at it this way: You place the template within the prescribed range on the Inferno Cannon section. You then treat it like any other template weapon. It's already placed and there's nothing saying you can pick it back up, so it hits all of the models it can and covers as much of the vehicle as it can, because it can't be moved. You then use all the other template related rules (there are more than just about placement, like ignoring cover and all that.) And then you go on about your merry life.

In my mind, what you're suggesting is that if I have a marine with a flamer, and I move him up 4" so that he's only 1" away from a vehicle so that I can flame through one side of it and get the vehicle on the other side, that I have in fact moved illegally because I have to flame as much of the targeted vehicle as possible, so I should have had to moved such that as much of the area of the flamer would be over the targeted vehicle. That's backwards. B comes after A, not the other way around.

Understood, but when you are shooting you are supposed to pick a target now as far as your flamer guy scenario goes yeah obviously as long as your following all the template rules and you hit another vehicle that's fine and dandy. But when you shoot an inferno cannon through 3 raiders which you can easily do by not following the rule that you must cover as much of a vehicle as possible how are you even picking a target then? That's like saying your just shooting in an area and hitting all targets...

Anyways I believe I have got my answer on this as most people agree that it can defy physics and rules. Thanks for the input everyone

Quick reminder that people should be conversing politely. Take a moment to read over Rule Number One:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/core/forum_rules.jsp

@all: Maybe also take a break from the discussion.

You place the template according to the codex, then count hits according to template rules. Pretty simple really.

-cgmckenzie

First off I'm not a troll

Second I understand how this works now

And third the only reason I was trying to get my point across is because I'm not a guard player, I play dark eldar and it kind of sucks when you can lose multiple transports to an inferno cannon I mean S6 vs armor 10 come on, if you were in my shoes you would probably do the same. Anyways I guess I now know what my target priority will be from now on and I will space out my vehicles better.

Let's toss the rules out here one more time, since it seems they were lost in a sea of arguing.

1. The temple must be placed within 12 inches of the weapon, but the large end CAN'T be closer to the weapon than the narrow end of the template
2. Now you MUST cover as much of the intended target with the template as possible, WITHOUT breaking rule 1. In most cases, this means you would actually turn the template so that the template itself is completely in line of the vehicle (if shooting at a vehicle) and covering as much as physically possible. Again, WITHOUT breaking rule 1.
*Note* you can actually turn the template almost a full 90 degrees while following rule 1, and allows for interesting angles of attack. This is completely legal, as long as you don't break rule 1

Can the inferno cannon possibly hit several vehicles? Yes, but it is EXTREMELY difficult to do without your opponents help, since it pretty much requires them to arrange their vehicles so close together.

This is legal

If the target consists of 3 vehicles, then hitting the three of them will count as 'as much of the target as possible'.

-cgmckenzie

They are each individual units not a squadron

omerakk wrote:Let's toss the rules out here one more time, since it seems they were lost in a sea of arguing.

2. Now you MUST cover as much of the intended target with the template as possible, WITHOUT breaking rule 1. In most cases, this means you would actually turn the template so that the template itself is completely in line of the vehicle (if shooting at a vehicle) and covering as much as physically possible.

Can the inferno cannon possibly hit several vehicles? Yes.

This is wrong. You do not have to cover the most possible if it is the Cannon. Aglo's picture is 100% correct.

Yes, you do. the only thing that the Inferno cannon changes is the starting location of the template. And I am an IG player.................

From what I understand now and what i thought earlier and alot of reading into rules and taking words in exact detail.

1) Fire and place the template using rules in IG codex under hellhound tank. Inferno Cannon
2) The template is placed and resolve all hits at this point.
3) Use the rules as counting as any other template weapon (ignores cover saves and hits all models that it partially covers the base etc)
4) Vehicles are hit as long as template covers the hull in any way - forget about the bit that says must cover as much of hull as possible as it cannot be moved no that is has been placed already.
5) Get on with the game and have fun.


Im also getting out of here aswell before this starts a full argument and I'm sorry if anyone was offended by my interpretation of the rules in an earlier post but I know somewhere it says that you use codex rules over rulebook rules.

Don,

Where does it say that? The Codex tells you have to place the template. After it is placed, THEN it follows the rules of templates.

You can't just ignore the rulebook and play straight out of the codex rule, or else you're completely missing all of the rules for template weapons.

It's like people are saying, "Well all it says it move the template 12 inches and place it, then says follow the rulebook for template weapons, well guess I'll just ignore that part because it can't retroactively happen? You can't just ignore the rulebook.

If you wanted to play it that way, you can also say that your Inferno Cannon never fires because it can't follow the rulebook rule, thus never happens.

Kreedos wrote:It's like people are saying, "Well all it says it move the template 12 inches and place it, then says follow the rulebook for template weapons, well guess I'll just ignore that part because it can't retroactively happen? You can't just ignore the rulebook.

The rule does not state that you move the template 12". It spells out exactly how to place the template, replacing all rules for placing templates. You can place it anywhere you like as long as it obeys the two rules:

The small end is within 12" of the cannon.
The large end is no closer to the cannon than the small end.

The hellhound has a pretty unique weapon with very specific placement rules.

Edit: I started thinking about if you even need to have LOS, or indeed target anything at all. I also started to think about firing at the upper levels of ruins. My head started to hurt, so I stopped.

jbunny wrote:Don,

Where does it say that? The Codex tells you have to place the template. After it is placed, THEN it follows the rules of templates.

In the main rulebook under the template rules.

Is that also where it tells you to place the template within 12"? o that's right, the BRB does not say that... That's in the Codex.

Codex rules supercede BRB. The hellhound is an exception to the placement rule for templates, but all other rules regarding them still apply, eg no cover, auto hit, etc.

If the vehicle's hull is covered at all, it counts as a hit with a hellhound.

-cgmckenzie

ps, bailing too. Said the right rules and don't want to be part of the... flame war. YEAAAAAAAAAAA!!!

This is the reply I received from the INATFAQ Webmaster

Yes the Inferno Cannon follows all the rules for template weapons except that it doesn't have to be placed touching the firing model (as shown in the rule you quoted).

So yes, you would have to cover as many models in the target enemy unit, you can't cover friendly models or models locked in combat, etc. All the other rules for template weapons apply.


Hope that helps,

This is the question that was asked

Hello,

Just came across this issue in a game recently, I’ve always thought the inferno cannon could fire at anything as long as it abided by its rules in the codex until I read the templates section in the rulebook.

Pg. 50 Imperial Guard

"To fire the inferno cannon place the template so that the narrow end is within 12" of the weapon and the large end is no closer to the weapon than the narrow end. The inferno cannon is then treated like any other template weapon"


Pg. 29 Rulebook

Templates

"Against vehicles, the template must be placed to cover as much of the vehicle as possible without also touching a friendly model. Any models fully or partially under the template are hit.

Does the inferno cannon follow this rule in the rulebook?

I'm not going to post the actual email for privacy reasons but you can easily ask them the same question or PM me your email and I can forward it to you.

I doubt this will actually change your minds but I'm just posting this in case any of you happen to abide by INATFAQ rulings.

I still don't agree. INAT is not GW, though I do tend toward using it myself, but that still doesn't change the fact that your answer is as verifiable as if I emailed GW.

So, going back to the order of events. Let's do it your way. I place the template so that the small end is within 12" and the large end is no closer to the Hellhound than the small end. I then use ALL the rules for template weapons, which says to put the template so that it is touching the firing model and covering as much of the targetted vehicle as possible.

Wait a second... sounds like my inferno cannon broke. What says that, as long as you're moving the template placement after the fact, that you're not supposed to follow ALL the rules for placement, including the part where it says the template should be touching the firing model? Reducto ad absurdum, I suspect that there is a flaw in this method.

Let's try it the other way. I place the template so that the small end is within 12" and the large end is no closer to the Hellhound than the small end. I THEN use the rules for template weapons. Okay, it says to place the template so that its narrow end is touching the base of the model firing it and the rest of the template (...). Well, we can't do that, because the inferno cannon already specified both where the small end AND the large end go, and we don't have any provisions allowing for us to "replace" the template. Against vehicles, the template must be placed to cover as much of the vehicle as possible (...). Okay, great. As it's been placed, there's no other place you CAN move it to that would cover any more of the vehicle, because the placement has already been determined.

I would completely agree with your interpretation on this were it not for the fact that it says that you "then" use the rules for template weapons. Without that qualifier, I would say it would use the rules for placement as well. I would think that if they wanted it to operate your way, then they would have said something along the lines of, "This weapon operates like a template weapon as described in the rulebook, except that you may designate a spot 12 inches away to be the location of the small end of the template. The template may never be placed such that the large end is ever closer to the hellhound than the small end."

Totally disagree.

Let's take a look at other stacking rules. A monolith, for example, is a tank and a skimmer. It follows the rules for both vehicles. It has it's own special rules which replace certain aspects, but anything not mentioned by the special rules, falls back under the category of tanks and skimmers.

The inferno cannon has special rules for firing and positioning the template, but it is still a template attack. Just because it doesn't specifically say "cover as much as possible of your target" is irrelevant, because by defining it as a template attack, the template rules are still in effect. You follow the special rules that are given first, and once you have done that, you finish by using any normal template rules that were in effect and not called out and changed by the special rules.

The inferno rules change the range and positioning of the template, but say nothing about the original template rule of attempting to cover as much of your target as possible, so they are still in effect.

1. place the small end within 12 inches of the weapon
2. make sure the larger end is no closer than the smaller end to the weapon
3. cover as much of your intended target as possible

cgmckenzie wrote:Codex rules supercede BRB.

No, for the love of God, NO!

It's specific>general, not Codex>BRB. I don't know how many times this has been said over the years.

jbunny wrote:Is that also where it tells you to place the template within 12"? o that's right, the BRB does not say that... That's in the Codex.

OK, so quote me from the codex where it says that the template rule about covering the most models possible is superceded. You can't cause it isn't in there. The only thing the Inferno Cannon changes is the starting point of the template. Take your blinkers of and actually read it.

Maybe you should do that. The rule explicitly tells you how to place the template, only after that you follow any template rules. If you had to follow the the "cover as much as possible "-rule you would also have to place the template touching the weapon, because it's not contradicting the codex. If you fire from the weapon you would still be within 12" and the small end is closer than the big one.

Heh, *I'm* the INAT webmaster...you could have just PM'd me and pointed me to this thread if you wanted!


Upon further inspection I have to agree that the rules do seem to suggest that the Inferno Cannon template is placed without restrictions before being treated like a template weapon.

Of course that interpretation also means the weapon completely ignore line of sight (can be fired right through a solid wall), into close combat and even be put over friendly troops. And the Hellhound can select a target for its Heavy Bolter and then fire the Inferno cannon at a completely different target. And it can't be fired at all at units in ruins, because with template weapons you have to declare what floor you're firing at, and this weapon supposedly isn't treated like a template weapon until after the template is placed.


Which of course is all nonsense. There is a way to interpret the Inferno Cannon rule that doesn't totally break all the normal mechanics of the game and then there's the other version which makes no sense and is unplayable in some situations.

So regardless I believe there is only one way to actually PLAY this weapon, regardless of what the rules seem to suggest.

Yak - it would still require LOS, as you dont get to place the template until you have checked LOS and range first.

Agree with the rest, however!

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yak - it would still require LOS, as you dont get to place the template until you have checked LOS and range first.

Agree with the rest, however!

Ah, but that's the rub. You'd nominate the 'target' of your firing, which you are totally correct that you'd have to have LOS to that unit. BUT THEN you'd place the template, and by the interpretation being presented in this thread, you could place that template ANYWHERE within the range specified by the Inferno Cannon. So yes, you could effectively shoot right through a solid wall.

Hmm, see where you're going.

Agreed that there is only one way that really works, which is to treat it as a template with a range and additional resitrciton on orientation.

Sorry, poor wording on my choice. When the codex and BRB disagree, the codex is correct because it is dealing with a specific model/unit while the BRB is dealing with the entire game. Generally the codex is specific, BRB is general.

-cgmckenzie

yakface wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yak - it would still require LOS, as you dont get to place the template until you have checked LOS and range first.

Agree with the rest, however!

Ah, but that's the rub. You'd nominate the 'target' of your firing, which you are totally correct that you'd have to have LOS to that unit. BUT THEN you'd place the template, and by the interpretation being presented in this thread, you could place that template ANYWHERE within the range specified by the Inferno Cannon. So yes, you could effectively shoot right through a solid wall.

Unless you hit at least one model of your declared target, the entire template would miss, just like a flamer firing at a unit out of range, but hitting models standing in front of it. You also may not chose units locked in combat as your target(prevented by shooting rules, not templates), but you may place the template in such a way that it still hits them, which would also work for a normal flamer. The only real loophole is being able to hit your own model with the template, but only if you declare and hit another target in the process.