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VoxDei wrote:

Bishop99 wrote:
I dont think that he ment that the turrent is not part of the hull but more like not part of any hull quadrent/facing i still think you get a shoot but its a 3+ because you cant see the hull facing your in it would be like if i was in front arc of a LR but all i can see sticking out of cover is the side sponson

Except that's not the rule. You only get a 3+ if you can't see the quadrant your facing but you can see one of the other quadrants. Page 60 shows you a diagram of the quadrants. And the only quadrant he can see is the front facing. It doesn't matter which direction the turret is facing it's still the front quadrant because you are in front of the vehicle.

and what im saying is that the turrent isnt in the front Quad. there is no rule that says it is the only things shown in the BRB is the four acctual sides of the tank turrents are not specified as a specific quadrent

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VoxDei wrote:

Bishop99 wrote:
I dont think that he ment that the turrent is not part of the hull but more like not part of any hull quadrent/facing i still think you get a shoot but its a 3+ because you cant see the hull facing your in it would be like if i was in front arc of a LR but all i can see sticking out of cover is the side sponson

Except that's not the rule. You only get a 3+ if you can't see the quadrant your facing but you can see one of the other quadrants. Page 60 shows you a diagram of the quadrants. And the only quadrant he can see is the front facing. It doesn't matter which direction the turret is facing it's still the front quadrant because you are in front of the vehicle.

Still not 100% clarified on this. Why does it not matter which side the turret is facing? If you look at the picture on p60 as you point out the turret is also "divided" into quadrants as the line is drawn across. Does that make the turret have quadrants? I don't know...but what your saying doesn't make anything concrete and as far as I know, I CAN BE WRONG, nothing in the book says the turret is always the facing of wherever you are shooting from. So it's not that concrete as your making out to be..

Page 60. Shooting at vehicles. "must be able to see its hull or turret" Gun barrels are an exception. But direction of line of sight are determined by the quadrants and the turret is not given any exception in that.


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syypher wrote:

Still not 100% clarified on this. Why does it not matter which side the turret is facing? If you look at the picture on p60 as you point out the turret is also "divided" into quadrants as the line is drawn across. Does that make the turret have quadrants? I don't know...but what your saying doesn't make anything concrete and as far as I know, I CAN BE WRONG, nothing in the book says the turret is always the facing of wherever you are shooting from. So it's not that concrete as your making out to be..

Super simple. Using the 4 quadrants shown on the picture which quadrant can you see? I'll give you a hint. The answer is the front. the picture on page 60 is very plain. The turret doesn't have it's own quadrants in the picture. There is only one set of lines drawn. You have one vehicle with one set of quadrants. no other options.

VoxDei wrote:Page 60. Shooting at vehicles. "must be able to see its hull or turret" Gun barrels are an exception. But direction of line of sight are determined by the quadrants and the turret is not given any exception in that.


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syypher wrote:

Still not 100% clarified on this. Why does it not matter which side the turret is facing? If you look at the picture on p60 as you point out the turret is also "divided" into quadrants as the line is drawn across. Does that make the turret have quadrants? I don't know...but what your saying doesn't make anything concrete and as far as I know, I CAN BE WRONG, nothing in the book says the turret is always the facing of wherever you are shooting from. So it's not that concrete as your making out to be..

Super simple. Using the 4 quadrants shown on the picture which quadrant can you see? I'll give you a hint. The answer is the front. the picture on page 60 is very plain. The turret doesn't have it's own quadrants in the picture. There is only one set of lines drawn. You have one vehicle with one set of quadrants. no other options.

Don't need to be cheeky about it. I ask a question and am still confused about it because there is no clear cut "super simple" way to look at it the way you are saying it. If your getting frustrated by it or are going to give attitude about it to someone who is asking a question and is NOT DISAGREEING with you just seeking clarification then please just don't answer?

It is clear that the turret is not "one of the quadrants" of the hull. What I see is the hull is divided into 4 quadrants, if were doing it your way and saying the picture if simple so don't count the turret being a divided turret. I don't think the only side I see is the front facing because to me the facing are the hulls. Hence I am saying I cant see it. You are saying the turret is simply the front facing, how are you coming about that? How are you coming about that what I am seeing the front quadrant? By all means if you want to continue please explain. I don't understand how you guys are coming up with the "front facing hull" as designated in the picture on p60 is what I can see, when I can't even see it because something is in the way. Unless you are saying the turret is the front facing, in which case I have been asking how do you come about with the turret being part of the front facing?

I am not trying to be rude and you may think it "super simple" but to me it is not. If you are actually reading and trying to understand what I am asking then you are not answering my question. Sorry.

It doesn't matter which quadrant the turret is it. It only matters which quadrant the firer is in. You draw a line of sight from the firing model to the target. It will run straight down the middle of the tank and hit the turret. Thats the front. It doesn't matter if the turret isn't in the front quadrant just that the line of sight is. In order to hit the side quadrant the line of sight has to come from the side quadrant. Pg 60 "...depending on which facing the shot comes from"

Edit: Adding page number for clarity

VoxDei wrote:It doesn't matter which quadrant the turret is it. It only matters which quadrant the firer is in. You draw a line of sight from the firing model to the target. It will run straight down the middle of the tank and hit the turret. Thats the front. It doesn't matter if the turret isn't in the front quadrant just that the line of sight is. In order to hit the side quadrant the line of sight has to come from the side quadrant. "...depending on which facing the shot comes from"

but thats doesnt answer the question of if its a 3+ or a 4+ if los is not draw to the forward quadrent but through the forward i think its a 3+

You can't see any other quadrants because the vehicle is directly facing the firer (I just went back and read the OP and i realize this wasn't stated but it's what i understood from the message. If the razorback isn't directly facing the dread then all bets are off are short of being there and even then you may end up just dicing off).

No your right. It's just as I put in my diagram. The RB is directly behind the Predator. You can only see the turret and the front of the Pred.

VoxDei wrote: In order to hit the side quadrant the line of sight has to come from the side quadrant. Pg 60 "...depending on which facing the shot comes from"

Edit: Adding page number for clarity

But page 63 talks about exactly what your saying you can't do. Your saying you cant draw LOS to side because you have to be in that quadrant. In p63 it says when your in a quadrant, but cannot see that facing of the vehicle and see another facing, you can still shoot but gain a 3+.

Still confused since there are both logical arguments yet neither is concrete yet

Syypher, here is the easiest way I have found to do it.

For the front facing on a razorback, get down at table level and look at an unobstructed vehicle, look at it from dead center so you can not see the sides.

Anything you see is the front facing of said vehicle, turret and all.

In your case you could see the front of the turret (Which you can see if you look at the razorback as I have described)

Turret and Hull are Identical [P.60] as far as LoS is concerned, so you are shooting at the front in the case you described, and the vehicle can claim a 4+ cover save.

VoxDei wrote:Page 60. Shooting at vehicles. "must be able to see its hull or turret" Gun barrels are an exception. But direction of line of sight are determined by the quadrants and the turret is not given any exception in that.


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syypher wrote:

Still not 100% clarified on this. Why does it not matter which side the turret is facing? If you look at the picture on p60 as you point out the turret is also "divided" into quadrants as the line is drawn across. Does that make the turret have quadrants? I don't know...but what your saying doesn't make anything concrete and as far as I know, I CAN BE WRONG, nothing in the book says the turret is always the facing of wherever you are shooting from. So it's not that concrete as your making out to be..

Super simple. Using the 4 quadrants shown on the picture which quadrant can you see? I'll give you a hint. The answer is the front. the picture on page 60 is very plain. The turret doesn't have it's own quadrants in the picture. There is only one set of lines drawn. You have one vehicle with one set of quadrants. no other options.

+1

VoxDei wrote:

Bishop99 wrote:
I dont think that he ment that the turrent is not part of the hull but more like not part of any hull quadrent/facing i still think you get a shoot but its a 3+ because you cant see the hull facing your in it would be like if i was in front arc of a LR but all i can see sticking out of cover is the side sponson

Except that's not the rule. You only get a 3+ if you can't see the quadrant your facing but you can see one of the other quadrants. Page 60 shows you a diagram of the quadrants. And the only quadrant he can see is the front facing. It doesn't matter which direction the turret is facing it's still the front quadrant because you are in front of the vehicle.

By using the same diagram couldn't you put the front arc of the turret facing the back so that when they shoot your at your rear and all they see is the turret they would count as hitting the front armour?

BoyMac wrote:

VoxDei wrote:

Bishop99 wrote:
I dont think that he ment that the turrent is not part of the hull but more like not part of any hull quadrent/facing i still think you get a shoot but its a 3+ because you cant see the hull facing your in it would be like if i was in front arc of a LR but all i can see sticking out of cover is the side sponson

Except that's not the rule. You only get a 3+ if you can't see the quadrant your facing but you can see one of the other quadrants. Page 60 shows you a diagram of the quadrants. And the only quadrant he can see is the front facing. It doesn't matter which direction the turret is facing it's still the front quadrant because you are in front of the vehicle.

By using the same diagram couldn't you put the front arc of the turret facing the back so that when they shoot your at your rear and all they see is the turret they would count as hitting the front armour?

No, all that counts is the facing of the firer in relation to the vehicle. Good try though. I'd get a good laugh in if somebody tried to pull that on me in a game.

Mannahnin wrote:What part of the vehicle the turret is is irrelevant. Facing is based on the position of the firing model relative to the four quadrants of the vehicle as shown in the diagram.

I agree with Deathreaper, Nosferatu1001, and calypso.

This

ChocolateGork wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:What part of the vehicle the turret is is irrelevant. Facing is based on the position of the firing model relative to the four quadrants of the vehicle as shown in the diagram.

I agree with Deathreaper, Nosferatu1001, and calypso.

This

I dont think that the issue is faceing i think the debate is over if the faceing is covered by the preditor

ChocolateGork wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:What part of the vehicle the turret is is irrelevant. Facing is based on the position of the firing model relative to the four quadrants of the vehicle as shown in the diagram.

I agree with Deathreaper, Nosferatu1001, and calypso.

This

Nah Brah, I'm totally going to shoot the rear armour of your turret as you're not allowed to rotate it during my shooting phase.


Again see the amazingly well detailed and thought-out diagram on page 60, sure it doesn't take into account to rare case of non-rectangular vehicles...

VoxDei wrote:It doesn't matter which quadrant the turret is it. It only matters which quadrant the firer is in.

Had an IG player try to pull this rule on me when I was shooting his Hydras. Four huge autocannon barrels + large block turret standing well above his covering chimera and he was claiming I couldn't see his front facing.

The quadrant the firer is in is not the only consideration for purposes of obscurement. What matters is which quadrant of the target he can see. If the firer is in the front quadrant but can't see it, he may be able to see the side quadrant.

That is the situation in which you get the 3+ cover save.

The diagram showing the division into four parts by diagonals, makes it clear that the roof is divided into four facings which count as the sides. If the attacker cannot see the front of the vehicle, its roof or turret, but could see the side of the roof or turret -- which counts as the left facing -- then the vehicle gets a 3+ cover save.

This could happen in the example give if the attacking unit was slightly higher compared to the target, because the hull and turret of the Predator might totally obscure the front facing of the target.

If the attacking unit was slightly lower or even on the same level he probably wouldn't be able to see the target at all, because the Predator is larger and closer to the firer.

If the target had sponsons it would be possible to see those from the same or lower level. They count as being in the side quadrants even when viewed from in front.

For clarification:

The battlewagon is basically a long box and can mount a big gun/killkannon turret both on the driver compartment or above the rear passenger platform. If you mount it above the driver's compartment, it would always be considered front facing, if you mount it in the back, it would always be the rear facing, even if perfectly visible from the front.

If the entire facing from the arch your firing from is obscured, its a 3+ from what I understand.

I'm pretty sure this is how you get 3+ cover for vehicles

Also pretty right

You have too many Long Fangs in your squad...just saying

lunarman wrote:Diagram

Excellent- very clear. Thank you.

calypso2ts wrote:

IdentifyZero wrote:

On page 62 under Vehicles and Cover - Obscured Targets. Go to the very bottom.

Yes I know this rule, this rule is for when you cannot see anything in a particular armor facing.

IdentifyZero wrote:
The turret does count as part of the vehicle to target, sure. It isn't specified as a specific facing though, therefore: it still receives a 3+ save as they are not really shooting at a visible facing of the vehicle, which means they are shooting at another facing of the target vehicle based on that slim bit of visibility.

Now we are making up rules. Lets actually apply the real rules, rather than the idea that if a facing isn't specified then it is a 3+...The rule on page 62 actually states..."it may happen that the firing unit cannot see any part of the facing they are in ...may take a shot against the facing they can see"

Ok cool, I will shoot at the turrets facing, what facing is it? Wait, you answered this one...

IdentifyZero wrote:
It isn't specified as a specific facing though

Wait, what it the armor value of the turret if it has no facing...well looks like your interpretation broke the game, we better make up some random rules to fix it, I propose we give the unit a 4+ cover save on the front facing which is coincidentally the same thing you get when you apply the actual game rules.

The turret, like the top of the vehicle counts as side armor. In this case, they are taking a shot at a part of the vehicle they can technically not see and is more then 50% obscured.

There are no rules being made up, read the entire section on vehicles, cover, look at the diagram.

Also, have any of you re-created this diagram yourself? There is barely visibility to a razorback turret behind a predator turret, in fact, I could only see the top of the gun barrels on the turret and according to the BRB, gun barrels are not good enough.

Check & Mate.

** Page 60. Shooting at Vehicles **

"When a unit fires at a vehicle, it must be able to see its hull or turret (Ignoring the vehicle's gun barrels, antennas, decorative banner poles, etc.)." All that is visible behind the predator is the gun barrels.

There is no "top" facing, just a rule for barrage weapons being resolved against side armor with a fluff explanation(BRB pg. 60).
The razorback's turret should be in the rear facing.

Jidmah wrote:There is no "top" facing, just a rule for barrage weapons being resolved against side armor with a fluff explanation(BRB pg. 60).
The razorback's turret should be in the rear facing.

Either way, if you recreate this diagram; you can only see gun barrels of the razorback. Which according to the rules, is not good enough.

Yup, agree.

IdentifyZero wrote:
The turret, like the top of the vehicle counts as side armor. In this case, they are taking a shot at a part of the vehicle they can technically not see and is more then 50% obscured.

It is only counted as 'top' armour aka side if it's a barrage weapon and the hole of the template lands on the vehicle. 50% obscured is 4+ cover save. less than 50% Obscured is no cover.

IdentifyZero wrote:

There are no rules being made up, read the entire section on vehicles, cover, look at the diagram.

Also, have any of you re-created this diagram yourself? There is barely visibility to a razorback turret behind a predator turret, in fact, I could only see the top of the gun barrels on the turret and according to the BRB, gun barrels are not good enough.

If this is true and the gun barrel is the only part that you can see then there is no LOS and shot auto misses and the whole thread is moot

He is referring to the diagram above. In this case the turret would be out of LoS for the long fangs, and thus the entire facing would be hidden, granting a 3+ cover save against them, because they can see the front facing.

But as the gun barrels do not count the razorback's turret is in the rear facing anyway, so even if the could see it above the build, their facing is still hidden.

VoxDei wrote:

IdentifyZero wrote:
The turret, like the top of the vehicle counts as side armor. In this case, they are taking a shot at a part of the vehicle they can technically not see and is more then 50% obscured.

It is only counted as 'top' armour aka side if it's a barrage weapon and the hole of the template lands on the vehicle. 50% obscured is 4+ cover save. less than 50% Obscured is no cover.

IdentifyZero wrote:

There are no rules being made up, read the entire section on vehicles, cover, look at the diagram.

Also, have any of you re-created this diagram yourself? There is barely visibility to a razorback turret behind a predator turret, in fact, I could only see the top of the gun barrels on the turret and according to the BRB, gun barrels are not good enough.

If this is true and the gun barrel is the only part that you can see then there is no LOS and shot auto misses and the whole thread is moot

That to, but I would allow someone to fire in such a situation with a 3+ save. Representing, the visibility is firing against a part of the hull that is not visible (I.E firing the shots on an angle with the turrets gun barrels as a guide).

Either way, it's a 3+ save or no shot at all.