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Competitiveness is much more general than Codex. A good general can use a mediocre to bad codex and still win. What happens, though, when the generalship tends to even out, such as in later round tourney play? The strength of the codex and lists starts to emerge as a more critical factor. CSM have a substandard codex for 5th ed. You figure out what that means.

This sums it up nicely.

CSM's aren't that bad in terms of raw competitiveness against many armies out there. The problem is that other 5E marine armies, primarily Space Wolves, can often do almost exactly the same lists (or literally the exact same lists in some cases), for fewer points with more effective troops.

MrDrumMachine's list looks rather scary actually (and, while very cut/paste, exceedingly Iron Warriors-y), but is reminiscient of most SW Razorfangspam lists that'll have similar firepower and greater range

Exactly, they are playing at a handicap. When a Wolf Guard with powerfist and combi melta is 43 points and a CSM Champion is 65 for the same guy expect with LD 10 but lacking ATSKNF (extremely underpriced rule to begin with), Counter Attack (sigh), and Acute Sense and there's a bit of a problem.

Point for point a standard CSM squad of 10 with 2 meltas, a Rhino, Icon of Chaos Glory and the above Champion costs 265 points.

9 Grey Hunters with Melta, Wolf Standard (sleaze) and the Wolf Guard in Rhino costs: 228.

So the SW squad is 37 less points and has better morale rules, the sleaze banner, and counter attack. Plus they have choices of Razors and Drop Pods for more versatility. This cost creep really starts to hurt as you multiply the squads a couple of times to fill out a list.

Precisely, SW's do everything better and cheaper with what are highly identical units as long as you aren't playing a Cult army, they can oufight most armies out there in CC and do Iron Warriors gunlines better than any book out there currently, which is ridiculous (and no, I don't advocate using C:SW for IW armies )

Most wont agree but I think one of the best things about playing MEQ is that you can pick any MEQ codex and play with it as long as your models are WYSIWYG. So when I look at the field of MEQ codex's out there in my HIGHLY subjective opinion I see codex space marines, blood angles, space wolves and grey knights being able to put up plenty of competitive builds. Black Templar can still be scary, Dark Angels are really showing their age and chaos space marines have some SERIOUS issues with competitive play.

That being said I say if you like the way models look pick up some chaos models and use a different codex for competitive games. If your just playing around at your FLGS and don't really care if your going to win and want to use some of chaos marines more exotic units like demon princes or what ever then use the chaos book. There is nothing wrong with switching between books and most people I know don't really care as long as your minis are painted well and are modeled correctly.

If I had it my way all space marines armies would have one big book and then the other alien armies would be expanded so they could be just as diverse but that's just wishful thinking.

JGrand wrote:
Elites- Termicide is cheap and decent. Chosen are expensive for what they can do. Not a horrible unit but are still confined to the speed of a Rhino with short range.

Chosen with 5 Plasma Guns rolling in via outflanking Rhino has always seemed to do pretty good 'round here. Well, when they show up that is.

Considering Terminators, Chosen, and Obliterators, CSM would probably be at the top of the game if they had some way of improving reserve rolls.

Great job guys you scared him away with all your generic talk.

OP, if you ever come back, don't feel discouraged by the CSM's lack of chapter/legion-specific rules. If you want you can always field your CSM as space wolves, but you don't have to. The 4E chaos dex is not as "colourful" (stupid) as the old one, but no other codex gives greater variety between its power-armoured unit entries. You've got the regular chaos marines, chosen marines, raptors and havocs, all customizable with icons to represent whatever you want. You've got berzerkers, thousand sons, PLAGUE MARINES and noise marines as TROOPS.

You don't like death guard? So what, my plague marines are just extra-heretical word bearers with more bling. If you want, play an army of berzerkers and make them up as angry marines.

Oh and we get possessed... THE BEST UNIT OF THEM ALL

Chosen with 5 Plasma Guns rolling in via outflanking Rhino has always seemed to do pretty good 'round here. Well, when they show up that is.

Considering Terminators, Chosen, and Obliterators, CSM would probably be at the top of the game if they had some way of improving reserve rolls.

That Chosen Squad is 200 points though. It's an awfully risky unit for the fact that it has to deal with the unpredictability of reserves AND the 33% chance of coming in on the wrong board edge. If the wrong side is Siberia it's bye bye unit. Also, the Plasma is pretty nice but I tend to fail too many overheat saves

Still, a DS oriented CSM would be pretty cool. Too bad the rules lack flavor

Great job guys you scared him away with all your generic talk.

OP, if you ever come back, don't feel discouraged by the CSM's lack of chapter/legion-specific rules. If you want you can always field your CSM as space wolves, but you don't have to. The 4E chaos dex is not as "colourful" (stupid) as the old one, but no other codex gives greater variety between its power-armoured unit entries. You've got the regular chaos marines, chosen marines, raptors and havocs, all customizable with icons to represent whatever you want. You've got berzerkers, thousand sons, PLAGUE MARINES and noise marines as TROOPS.

You don't like death guard? So what, my plague marines are just extra-heretical word bearers with more bling. If you want, play an army of berzerkers and make them up as angry marines.

Oh and we get possessed... THE BEST UNIT OF THEM ALL

To the OP: If you like them, play them. And play them as CSM for that matter. I would just try to make the most out of playing as a mediocre codex with lack of flavor. You could always kit bash some Possessed with the normal CSM sprues to make incredible models. Both of those boxes are some of the best GW produces.

cheers for responses guys.... I would hate idea of using hated Space Wolve/Blood Angels codexes as "counts-as", I should have to resort to that kind of tricks in order to play the army I want. I probably will give it a go anyway at some point... probably that won't be my tournament army of choice though

Cheers