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terranarc wrote:Death watch blows. Here's why:

4 marines, 1 GM

Marines all get heavy bolter.
GM thinks that a demon prince will be a great endgame boss.
Round 1: Demon prince dies.
Everyone: ಠ_ಠ

Sounds more like bad GMing, kind of like having a group of clerics facing a dracolich as the endgame opponent

That's why end bosses in RPGs are so often 'puzzle monsters.'

(Puzzle monster: Any opponent that is effectively invulnerable to any weapons the PCs are carrying, unless they do something to lower it's defenses, weaken it's ties to this plane of existence, or otherwise mess with it. Useful because players will merrily shoot anything, and many campaigns reach a point where the players are so over-armed it's not funny.)

As a player, I like an occasion puzzle monster if it's telegraphed a bit. It's frustrating to blow a bunch of resources (magic items/special ammo/etc.) on a boss that is just plain immune tot hem, but it can be fun if I know I've got to be thinking about how to weaken the boss...

terranarc wrote:Death watch blows. Here's why:

4 marines, 1 GM

Marines all get heavy bolter.
GM thinks that a demon prince will be a great endgame boss.
Round 1: Demon prince dies.
Everyone: ಠ_ಠ

Not any more.

Always pays to keep up to date on your errata.

Going to try out playing some of those free preview missions with my wife, we'll see how it goes. I've never really played a RPG before, and only dabbled in Shadowrun like... forever ago. Don't really want to use the premade characters tho, bleh.

Well my group is finding deathwatch fun, the biggest thing that they are not so hip on is the modifiers in combat(using a D&D mat almost every shot is within half range)

Modifiers in combat? Which ones?

And if everything's at half range, change the scale. We usually do 1 square/1 inch = 2 metres. And we vary between maps and 6x4 tables full of terrain.

ya, that may help, I'll try the inches thing next time

We've had the same problems with everything being at half-range. It's more apparent when your guys are fighting through installations and bases, space hulks, cave networks and whatnot - or even on smaller map sheets, like the D&D sheets that Gale Force 9 make or even Paizo's fantastic Flipmat series - but you can always change the scale.

Generally what we do is:

1. Change the scale to 1 inch/1 square = 2 metres. This ensures that you can still move a decent amount during each turn and it's easy to divide everything in half.
2. Any things that don't divide perfectly get rounded up (eg. if your half move is 7m, which would be 3.5 squares/inches, then you get to move 4 squares/inches).
3. Try to avoid 3m = 1 inch/square, as that causes more problems than its worth. Stick to multiples of 2.
4. Be careful about making the scale to big. You might want a long-ranged battle to take place, but if you make 10m = 1 inch/square, then things will get very dull on the movement front. Even 5m = 1 inch/square can lead to situations where a player gets to move one square a turn, or 3 if they run, and that might make combat quite tedious.
5. We do allow people to occupy the same square as other people, usually 2 per square if it's 2m = 1 square. This isn't such a big deal when we're using proper 3D terrain and not maps.

What me and my group did for one campaign was to combine all three games into it. We used DH to investigate the mysteries/cults/infestations, RT to basically get us to where we needed to go (inquisitor retinues frequently travel via RT), and once in a while when the DM planned something big and scary, our sadly human DH party would call in the marines from DW to go in and clean house. The majortiy was played with DH, but running the odd bloccade and flexing a bit of superhuman muscle is a nice change up every couple of sessions.

Hey HBMC, what do you suggest for bringing a map to life on tabletop?

I am just playing through the preview chapter for Dark Heresy right now, and the mines area seems like a fine place to take some models through, I just have no idea how I'd set it up on my 40k board in the basement.

daedalus-templarius wrote:Hey HBMC, what do you suggest for bringing a map to life on tabletop?

Before we started playing I began to horde together various tile-sets from a number of different places, the best of which were actually the D&D tile-sets that Wizards of the Coast were releasing. I eventually expanded into Paizo Flipmats and a few copies of the DOOM board game and so on, but that first big game of DH, where we played through Shattered Hope, was done with a few sets of D&D tiles.

Luckily I have a photo!



What you're looking at here is two sets of D&D 'Caves of Carnage' tiles, one set of D&D 'Wizard's Tower' tiles (plus a few from 'Halls of the Mountain King' and one tile from the 'Sinister Streets' or whatever their streets/sewers set was called), the various pillars from GW's Arcane Ruins set, two doors from Warhammer Quest, one door from Space Hulk 3rd Edition (although any edition will do... or if you're like me, just get all three!), three doors from the DOOM board game FFG used to make (get a copy of this game - the tiles are worth their weight in gold - I own two sets they're so good), and a number of interior terrain bits (computer consoles, chairs, fuel pumps) for Antenociti's Workshop, a great website that makes 28mm scale sci-fi interior terrain. Not pictured are the things that went into that final room (the one with the big glowly rune in the middle). In there I put more computer consoles and the big obelisk from the Arcane Ruins set to represent that stone you have to destroy at the end.

Despite the fact that I've only played Rogue Trader, I would totally recommend it over Dark Heresy if your group is really into 40k -and- knows a good bit of the background.

It's already been touched upon, however I think Dark Heresy is great for starters. I played Rogue Trader with some of my non-40k friends and it took a very long time to get them up to speed, whereas for Dark Heresy it wouldn't have taken nearly as long.

I'm pretty much just playing with my wife, I might get some more of my 40k friends into it at some point tho, no idea... since we usually play 40k

That map looks epic HMBC. For now I think I am going to try and pick up one of those wet-erase maps so I can doodle the map onto it and it has the movement squares already marked. However, your setup would definitely be more ideal!

Vladsimpaler wrote:Despite the fact that I've only played Rogue Trader, I would totally recommend it over Dark Heresy if your group is really into 40k -and- knows a good bit of the background.

It's already been touched upon, however I think Dark Heresy is great for starters. I played Rogue Trader with some of my non-40k friends and it took a very long time to get them up to speed, whereas for Dark Heresy it wouldn't have taken nearly as long.

I couldn't disagree with you more. Neither is for beginners because both games have two different goals in mind. One game is investigation themed, the other is exploration themed (with Deathwatch being combat themed and Black Crusade being a mix of RT and DW with a Chaotic twist).

Furthermore, a group that is really into 40K might be more into the Inquisition aspect of 40K (I know I am) and not Rogue Traders.


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daedalus-templarius wrote:I'm pretty much just playing with my wife, I might get some more of my 40k friends into it at some point tho, no idea... since we usually play 40k

My group plays 40K as well. Last time we played 40K was in September last year. We've played many, many more RPG games since then. It kind've takes hold and has the detail level we all craved (yet never got) from 40K.

daedalus-templarius wrote:That map looks epic HMBC.

You should see the maps I've made since then, like the Forge World map, three different decks of a ship, the inside of a space station, big elaborate Imperial fortresses. I love terrain, and I love making maps. I'm even at the point where I design everything in Excel to get the measurements correct!

daedalus-templarius wrote:For now I think I am going to try and pick up one of those wet-erase maps so I can doodle the map onto it and it has the movement squares already marked. However, your setup would definitely be more ideal!

May I then suggest these guys. Paizo make a great selection of affordable double-sided maps, and they're dry-erase and wet-erase as well.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:Despite the fact that I've only played Rogue Trader, I would totally recommend it over Dark Heresy if your group is really into 40k -and- knows a good bit of the background.

It's already been touched upon, however I think Dark Heresy is great for starters. I played Rogue Trader with some of my non-40k friends and it took a very long time to get them up to speed, whereas for Dark Heresy it wouldn't have taken nearly as long.

I couldn't disagree with you more. Neither is for beginners because both games have two different goals in mind. One game is investigation themed, the other is exploration themed (with Deathwatch being combat themed and Black Crusade being a mix of RT and DW with a Chaotic twist).

Furthermore, a group that is really into 40K might be more into the Inquisition aspect of 40K (I know I am) and not Rogue Traders.

Haha, uh oh! Looks like I need to explain myself.

I always saw Dark Heresy as easier for beginners because the GM would make encounters for the characters. You would have the Inquisitor tell his acolytes to go to a planet to investigate whatever, and they would.

Whereas in Rogue Trader, there are so many different options and you can't just tell a Rogue Trader to just fight or investigate something, because they have a ship and can do whatever they want. Places more of a burden on the players.

And fair enough on being more into the Inquisition than Rogue Traders, tastes are subjective and I don't expect everyone to like the same stuff I do!

Vladsimpaler wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:Despite the fact that I've only played Rogue Trader, I would totally recommend it over Dark Heresy if your group is really into 40k -and- knows a good bit of the background.

It's already been touched upon, however I think Dark Heresy is great for starters. I played Rogue Trader with some of my non-40k friends and it took a very long time to get them up to speed, whereas for Dark Heresy it wouldn't have taken nearly as long.

I couldn't disagree with you more. Neither is for beginners because both games have two different goals in mind. One game is investigation themed, the other is exploration themed (with Deathwatch being combat themed and Black Crusade being a mix of RT and DW with a Chaotic twist).

Furthermore, a group that is really into 40K might be more into the Inquisition aspect of 40K (I know I am) and not Rogue Traders.

Haha, uh oh! Looks like I need to explain myself.

I always saw Dark Heresy as easier for beginners because the GM would make encounters for the characters. You would have the Inquisitor tell his acolytes to go to a planet to investigate whatever, and they would.

Whereas in Rogue Trader, there are so many different options and you can't just tell a Rogue Trader to just fight or investigate something, because they have a ship and can do whatever they want. Places more of a burden on the players.

And fair enough on being more into the Inquisition than Rogue Traders, tastes are subjective and I don't expect everyone to like the same stuff I do!

Well I am currently finding Deathwatch to be ideal for a group with no clue as to the 40k universe, combat is fun and intense, and there are not an omg amount of things the group needs to know.

Wardragoon wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:Despite the fact that I've only played Rogue Trader, I would totally recommend it over Dark Heresy if your group is really into 40k -and- knows a good bit of the background.

It's already been touched upon, however I think Dark Heresy is great for starters. I played Rogue Trader with some of my non-40k friends and it took a very long time to get them up to speed, whereas for Dark Heresy it wouldn't have taken nearly as long.

I couldn't disagree with you more. Neither is for beginners because both games have two different goals in mind. One game is investigation themed, the other is exploration themed (with Deathwatch being combat themed and Black Crusade being a mix of RT and DW with a Chaotic twist).

Furthermore, a group that is really into 40K might be more into the Inquisition aspect of 40K (I know I am) and not Rogue Traders.

Haha, uh oh! Looks like I need to explain myself.

I always saw Dark Heresy as easier for beginners because the GM would make encounters for the characters. You would have the Inquisitor tell his acolytes to go to a planet to investigate whatever, and they would.

Whereas in Rogue Trader, there are so many different options and you can't just tell a Rogue Trader to just fight or investigate something, because they have a ship and can do whatever they want. Places more of a burden on the players.

And fair enough on being more into the Inquisition than Rogue Traders, tastes are subjective and I don't expect everyone to like the same stuff I do!

Well I am currently finding Deathwatch to be ideal for a group with no clue as to the 40k universe, combat is fun and intense, and there are not an omg amount of things the group needs to know.

That's good!
I haven't read the Deathwatch rulebook over or GM'ed for it yet, so I can't give an opinion on it. Maybe I'll try it out sometime

I have played and mastered DW, and i have played DH and i have to say i like both alot. We haven't tried RT yet because we satisfy the "Kessel run desire" in us with the Firefly RPG (or do we totally not get what RT is?)

I noticed that many think of DW as just the Poweplay Version of DH, and i have to disagree there.
My last adventure was more about investigating and giving the killteam more options/ making it easier to fulfill certain objectives than just handing out the pain.

I have to admit that my Cthulhu "past" kinda influenced the whole "something moved in the dark corner!!...or..not.." stuff, but i wanted to start this killteam (i want to use them in more adventures) with something else than the generic "pewpew *blowuptyranid* pewpew"