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Brother Ramses wrote:
Do you roll to hit when firing a blast weapon?

You just quoted that to determine if models hit their target they need to roll a d6, yet with blast weapons you do not roll to hit.

What about rolling to hit with template weapons? Do you roll a d6 with those as well?

Uhhh, no when firing a blast weapon on rolls scatter, "When firing a blast weapon, models do not roll to hit, instead just pick one enemy model visible to the firer and place the blast marker" Pg 30.
Amazed that you didn't know that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and templates do it too, just in case.
"Instead of rolling to hit, simply place the template" Pg 29

I'm still looking for the entry in the BRB and FAQ that states 'hit automatically' or 'doesn't roll to hit' are the only allowable exceptions to the general PSA rules. Page......no, no, that's not it. Oh it's page.....wait...still don't see it.

ChrisCP wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:
Do you roll to hit when firing a blast weapon?

You just quoted that to determine if models hit their target they need to roll a d6, yet with blast weapons you do not roll to hit.

What about rolling to hit with template weapons? Do you roll a d6 with those as well?

Uhhh, no when firing a blast weapon on rolls scatter, "When firing a blast weapon, models do not roll to hit, instead just pick one enemy model visible to the firer and place the blast marker" Pg 30.
Amazed that you didn't know that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and templates do it too, just in case.
"Instead of rolling to hit, simply place the template" Pg 29

So you admit that there are indeed other ways to determine if models have hit their target with a ranged weapon yet you have limits when it comes to psychic shooting attacks?

Like I said, you do not understand the difference between general rules and codex excepions.

Exactly, if you are firing a PSA you follow the rules for firing ranged weapons. This can lead to the placement of a blast marker which if we follow the rules for firing ranged weapons we know how to resovle this attack. This instruction (placing a blast marker), like 'automactically hits', allows us to take the course of action.

I don't understand how pointing out that the rules follow the rules for shooting, to hit rolls placment of markers/templates. The clarification that one must roll to hit, roll scatter of using a marker, or to cover as much of the unit as possible with a template, is a continuation of the rules. It fits PSA must roll to hit, they follow the process of firing ranged weapons.

Jaws, it must pick a target, it must roll to hit. Thunderclap, must pick a target, but it's a marker based attack so we don't roll to hit, we roll scatter. Find a PSA that uses a template and you'll have to cover as much of the unit as possible. These are all just things that happen by folloing the rules for using PSA which tell us to use the general rules unless instructed otherwise.

Jaws does not tell us to draw a line across the battle field and that each model it touches is removed. Because it's a PSA we are told that "As a PSA the rune priest may". And we are told "Q. Does Jaws of the World Wolf require line of
sight? Does it ignore terrain that blocks line of sight (i.e., impassible terrain)?
A. As a psychic shooting attack, Jaws of the World Wolf requires line of sight. The Rune Priest must have line of sight to the first model that the power affects – in effect he is treated as the target model; the power just happens to hit everybody else on its way through!"
And again that:
"Q: Do psychic shooting attacks need to roll to hit? (p50)
A: Yes."

And he has done so. When the power goes off (you pass the P. Test) then roll distance and put down the line. THEN the first model under the line BECOMES the target. Not before that. So now that the line is down the codex states that any unit "in its path" suffers a hit.

Shooting wise, the line created by the power is LoS and Distance check. After that comes the roll to hit.
-The unit "suffers a hit" from the power. No need to roll.-

Because the target is made AFTER the line is done no roll to hit is needed as all (with exections stated) suffer a hit.

ChrisCP, does the below apply to PSA?

A librarian and a rune priest other psychic powers that have a range that are not carried out in the shooting phase. It has a range as detailed in the FAQ as to what is a PSA. By your use of the PSA definition, these too are a PSA. So now any psychic power that has a range is a PSA and must pass psychic test and roll to hit. After all it does have a range.

ChrisCP wrote:Exactly, if you are firing a PSA you follow the rules for firing ranged weapons. This can lead to the placement of a blast marker which if we follow the rules for firing ranged weapons we know how to resovle this attack. This instruction (placing a blast marker), like 'automactically hits', allows us to take the course of action.

I don't understand how pointing out that the rules follow the rules for shooting, to hit rolls placment of markers/templates. The clarification that one must roll to hit, roll scatter of using a marker, or to cover as much of the unit as possible with a template, is a continuation of the rules. It fits PSA must roll to hit, they follow the process of firing ranged weapons.

Jaws, it must pick a target, it must roll to hit. Thunderclap, must pick a target, but it's a marker based attack so we don't roll to hit, we roll scatter.

The question of whether Thunderclap scatters has come up before, and the ruling has been that it does not. Reasoning being, it is not a "Blast" weapon (which is a separate weapon category, like Melta, Gets hot! etc). See for example INATFAQ.

If the ruling before was that TC does not scatter, what has changed now?

If it uses the Blast marker and is a PSA, it is a Blast weapon and so scatters

Restricting where you initially place the template just restricts the first part of the step 3 replacement for blast weapons, and not the requirement to then scatter it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:If it uses the Blast marker and is a PSA, it is a Blast weapon and so scatters

Restricting where you initially place the template just restricts the first part of the step 3 replacement for blast weapons, and not the requirement to then scatter it.

This has been extensively discussed before. Search it up.

"Blast" is a specific weapon category. Just like Melta, Twin-linked etc. Nowhere in the TC description does it say that it is a Blast Weapon. Scatter rules are for Blast Weapons, not for Blast markers.

And really, having TC to roll for scatter would make it next to useless, and wouldn't make sense vis its description. I mean, you clap your hands together. How does that scatter?

So a PSA cannot be Blast? Oh wait, thts wrong. Eldritch storm.

Part of the weapon profile is "blast", making it a blast weapon. So it scatters.

Falchions are supposed to be weapons you can wield much faster than normal, yet only give as many attacks as any chump wielding any old power sword and pistol gets. Oddly enough the fluff doesnt always match the presentation in rules.

nosferatu1001 wrote:So a PSA cannot be Blast? Oh wait, thts wrong. Eldritch storm.

Part of the weapon profile is "blast", making it a blast weapon. So it scatters.

Where does it say that it's a "Blast"?

For Pete's sake, this whole idea has been debated before. Use Search, look INATFAQ, etc.

INATFAQ is not a valid rules source, and search is bust.

So a weapon (all PSAs are assault weapons) that uses the blast marker isnt a blast weapon? Interesting idea, but horribly wrong.

nosferatu1001 wrote: (all PSAs are assault weapons)

Mind Worm isn't. Not sure if it says it is a PSA, though.

Page 50 states all PSAs are assault unless specified otherwise, and Mind Worm is a PSA that does specify otherwise - from memory.

Brother Ramses wrote:
What does an enemy unit in the the lance's path do? They suffers
What does an enemy unit in a lance's path suffer? A hit
What kind of hit? A single str 8, ap 1

Add a decent beat and some cowbell and you have a number one there

Redbeard wrote:I don't have a dog in this race. I play neither Space Wolves (JotWW follows this argument too) nor Blood Angels.

Well, that is not quite sincere. You play orks, for which these PSA are used against, so naturally, you would be biased to interpret the FAQ in such a way that it inhibbits the use of these powers. A person who "didn't have a dog in this race" would be someone who doesn't play 40k. The next best alternative would be someone who plays both Tyranids (which JOTWW hurts the most) and Space Wolves.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Page 50 states all PSAs are assault unless specified otherwise, and Mind Worm is a PSA that does specify otherwise - from memory.

Actually, per new FAQ ruling, Mind Worm is not a PSA.

Erm, yes it is. It states it is a ranged weapon and has a profile (range 18", Heavy, etc)

nosferatu1001 wrote:Erm, yes it is. It states it is a ranged weapon and has a profile (range 18", Heavy, etc)

No it's not. The new FAQ is very explicit and precise in what exactly constitutes a PSA:

-Does Mind worm say it's a PSA? No it does not.

-Does it have a weapon profile, "ie. range, strength and AP value" (direct quote), no it does not.

Hence, it is not a PSA. It is a "Psychic something attack", like Lash. It doesn't really make much sense, but in this case it probably won't matter because of the limitations of the power, and hardly anyone uses it anyways.

Mindworm aside (I don't know the power well enough to comment);

PSA's are fired just like weapons in the shooting phase. I.e. They can be Roll to Hit (ala Bolters), Place a Template (ala Flamers), Place a Blast Marker (ala Plasma Cannons) and are resolved exactly as their respective normal shooting attack.

There are some PSA's that auto hit, but these are stated specificly in their codex profile (Leech Essense for example).

Blood Lance would work as follows:

Roll Psychic Test
Place Line
Roll to Hit
Anything Under Line Takes S8 AP1, Lance, Hit
Resolve as normal.

If you didn't roll to hit before, you were doing it incorrectly.

There's no requirement to roll to hit with Blood Lance because it specifies that anything on the line is hit. This is exactly the same as Murderous Hurricane which also specifies 'hits' not 'shots.'

Just gonna throw some of my 2 cents in on this... Lets see if I can add something to this...

Jaws states that as a PSA, the rune priest may trace a straight line along the board, starting from the rune priest and ending 24 inches away... (describes what it can go through)... MCs, beasts, cav, bikes and infantry models that are touched by this line must take an init test.

Sounds like a VERY thin template weapon, that if it touches you, you take a test... The hitting act was seeing if the line touches you...

As for Bloodlance, you take your psychic test, pass it (hopefully), and extend your straight line out to 4d6 inches... Once you've done that, you check to see what is in the path of said bloodlance... Any units in the path suffer a hit... they don't suffer an attack... You've already checked your attack by extending your line...

I understand that it has a profile like a ranged weapon (it has a range, a strength, ap, and type) but it has a further special additon... you've drawn your straight line, and anything in the way is hit... Where are we rolling to hit?

I have to say I agree with the no roll to hit side of this little argument. The "rolling to hit" is done when the line is drawn. Sounds simple enough to me, it is a template like weapon. With it being template like, if there was a form of "scatter" for the line, I would be perfectly fine with having to roll to hit. Since I passed the psychic test, that line has been shot and anything that line hit has to take the effect (working off of JotWW here since that is the closest codex to my person but pretty sure from earlier statements that Blood Lance works very similarly).