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odorofdeath wrote:Yeah, a lot of people think that "dedicated transports" are entirely different classes of vehicles. I've had opponents think that they could assault the contents of a dedicated transport after shooting the transport, "because its dedicated". It's literally the same as any other vehicle, but you can only load the unit that bought it in it at the start of the game.

I completely missed that in the BRB too, It even says "one unit". Sheesh I need to read a little closer.

Oh well, gives me an excuse for a Vendetta!

Yeah, it's stupid, but it's a rule.

Yeah... Vendettas are amazing. Just... really really good. I have no idea what Robin was smoking, but I like it. Just wish he had applied a little more of it to Sentinels (Power Weapons please please PLEASE!)

When you lose a 400+ pts unit during an alpha strike or bad reserve rolls... guard will struggle alot more against tough armies such as SW, GK, and etc. Trying to outflank for far objectives is a plus but only if you can maintain your own objective without getting overrun.

I just think Alra's big platoon is too much of a point sink for what he does. There are other cheaper ways to contest/hold far objectives, such as using outflanking vendettas loaded with vets. Even getting Creed I think is a better choice, he cost 20 pts more than Al-ra but has a command radius of 24" and brings more to the table. His tactical genius rule allows 1 infantry unit to scout/outflank, but atleast you get to choose whether or not you will outflank(Al-Ra must outflank).

SonsofVulkan wrote:When you lose a 400+ pts unit during an alpha strike or bad reserve rolls... guard will struggle alot more against tough armies such as SW, GK, and etc. Trying to outflank for far objectives is a plus but only if you can maintain your own objective without getting overrun.

I just think Alra's big platoon is too much of a point sink for what he does. There are other cheaper ways to contest/hold far objectives, such as using outflanking vendettas loaded with vets. Even getting Creed I think is a better choice, he cost 20 pts more than Al-ra but has a command radius of 24" and brings more to the table. His tactical genius rule allows 1 infantry unit to scout/outflank, but atleast you get to choose whether or not you will outflank(Al-Ra must outflank).

Tactical Genius actually allows 1 Infantry or Vehicle unit to outflank, much more fun. Outflanking a unit of Fast Attack Tanks (Hellhounds, Devil Dogs, Bane Wolves) is a great way to scare the pants off of your enemy's more static, or kept back forces.

4 orders a turn with a 24" bubble is absolutely amazing. I run Creed in most games I play at 1500pts and above, with great success. He makes Heavy Weapon Squads reasonably useful if you can keep them defended enough to get them in place.

But, back on topic:

Personally, I prefer Infantry Platoons to Veteran Squads. At roughly 2/3 the cost, an Infantry Squad can net you a lot more guys on the field, granted each unit may not be seen as effective, they can be a lot more survivable. I can totally understand how Al'Rahem would be seen as a less desirable unit as compared to a CCS with Creed. However, he does give you an opportunity to outflank more units, and deliver orders further up the battlefield while also having a decent combat edge if flanked by 4 melta troopers in a Chimera. Outflanking with an infantry platoon seems to work best as a 30man blob, or 2 squads in Chimeras, as previously stated.

From personal experience, I would say it's really tit for tat. The viability of Al'Rahem more rests on the composition of the rest of your army. If you are heavily employing Veteran squads, it does not really make a lot of sense to throw in a platoon of lesser guys to perform an outflanking maneuver when you can get your Veterans on the table via Valkyrie or Tactical Genius. If you play more of a platoon based army, then Al'Rahem adds a decent amount of mobility simply by shoving a (sometimes frightening, by sheer numbers) unit half way up the board, sometimes behind your enemies.

The standard platoon I run with Al'Rahem is as follows, and I think reflects on the majority of people who choose to run him:

Platoon Command Squad
4 Melta Guns
Captain Al'Rahem
Chimera

Infantry Squad x3
Plasma Gun (Againt MEQ, TEQ) / Flamer (Against anything else)
Power Weapon

Commissar
Power Weapon

All in all, it's not even that big of a points dump, gives you a large unit where you could really use it (remember your Astropaths!) and gives you some tank busting potential, while all scoring and only offering 3KP.

EDIT:

I may have to retract part of my statement, as I am at work without the BRB (but I have my codex with me). When forming a Combined Squad, they count as a single unit. If you form a Combined Squad during deployment, can you then give the entire thing Scout from Creed's "Tactical Genius"? I can see that making Al'Rahem less useful.

No you cant outflank an entire platoon with creed, you can only ourflank 1 unit. Meaning you can only choose a unit within that platoon, either the HWS, SWS, the PCS, or the 30-50 men blob.

Also your Al-Ra unit is flawed, you should give all your squads chimeras for the same mobility. Al-ra's PCS can only target 1 thing per turn.

Either way, Creed allows your game plan to be more flexible. You now get to choose whether or not and what unit to outflank.

SonsofVulkan
It does hurt Alrahem if he comes in late due to bad reserve rolls but +1 from the astropath helps.

I think the fire power you give up in objectives and table corners is worth it to play to the mission. Where Alrahem's lost firepower matters iis in kill points or vp. However ther tend to be more objective and table corners missions so he is very worth it.

I don't really like loading squads in Vendettas because I learned the hard way that they are target #1. You should be buying Chimeras for your squads. Outflanking Vendettas was also nerfed with the latest faq since you have to move > 6 and can only fire 1 las cannon.

jeramy404
Creed only lets you outflank 1 unit. It can be a blob if you want. I found outflanking blobs isn't that useful because its easier for people to stay out of their melta and assault range. With Chimeras you have reach with multi lasers and can't be blocked off by infantry since you can tank shock.

Creed and Harker so you can outflank 2 units if need be but can start them on the board if playing kp or vp might be worth testing but its so many points that it would only work at 2k. that would let all your units start on the board if you wanted to alpha strike. Creed more lends himself to 2k+ lists where outflanking demolishers can be fun.

Kirika outflanking Al-Ra doesnt always work that well even in objective games.

Assuming we are talking about playing only against competitive lists such as other mech guards, shooty wolves, gk, ba. Your opponent knows that you have to outflank a whole platoon, why would he need to rush you and leave his flank and rear objectives open? He has all 1850-2k pts on the table full of las/plas razorbacks, ML longfangs, psyfledreads and etc, while your down 400+ pts. Then when you outflank Al-Ra, he might come in the wrong table edge or even if he comes in the right one, his single Platoon may be facing a whole marine/IG gun line. A few meltas and powerfists will turn chimeras into fireballs and the whole Platoon getting pwned by bolters or get assaulted. A good player with a strong balanced cutthroat SW, BA, GK, IG lists isnt gonna just let you outflank, overrun his guys and take the objective. Knowing your outflanking, he can just place objectives away from the table edge. I'm sure you seem Al-Ra's platoon getting pwned before or simply just not very bada$$.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If taking objectives or table corners is very critical to you and that you must have a unit to outflank... just try Creed. If your playing for table quarters, you can just outflank 1 vet or infantry squad.
1850 List:

HQ:
CCS(Creed): 4 meltavets, OoTF, chimera

Troops:
Vets w 3 meltas, autocannon team in chimera
Vets w 3 meltas, autocannon team in chimera
Vets w 3 meltas, lascannon team in chimera
Vets w 3 meltas, lascannon team in chimera

Fast:
Vendetta
Vendetta
Vendetta

Hvy:
Manticore
Manticore
2x Hydra Flak

or

HQ:
CCS(Creed): 4 meltavets, OoTF, chimera

Troops:
Vets w 3 meltas, lascannon team in chimera
Vets w 3 meltas, lascannon team in chimera
PCS w 4 meltas in chimera
Infantry squad w 1 melta, autocannon team in chimera
Infantry squad w 1 melta, autocannon team in chimera

Fast:
Vendetta
Vendetta
Vendetta

Hvy:
Manticore
Manticore
2x Hydra Flak

jeramy404 wrote:

SonsofVulkan wrote:When you lose a 400+ pts unit during an alpha strike or bad reserve rolls... guard will struggle alot more against tough armies such as SW, GK, and etc. Trying to outflank for far objectives is a plus but only if you can maintain your own objective without getting overrun.

I just think Alra's big platoon is too much of a point sink for what he does. There are other cheaper ways to contest/hold far objectives, such as using outflanking vendettas loaded with vets. Even getting Creed I think is a better choice, he cost 20 pts more than Al-ra but has a command radius of 24" and brings more to the table. His tactical genius rule allows 1 infantry unit to scout/outflank, but atleast you get to choose whether or not you will outflank(Al-Ra must outflank).

Tactical Genius actually allows 1 Infantry or Vehicle unit to outflank, much more fun. Outflanking a unit of Fast Attack Tanks (Hellhounds, Devil Dogs, Bane Wolves) is a great way to scare the pants off of your enemy's more static, or kept back forces.

4 orders a turn with a 24" bubble is absolutely amazing. I run Creed in most games I play at 1500pts and above, with great success. He makes Heavy Weapon Squads reasonably useful if you can keep them defended enough to get them in place.

But, back on topic:

Personally, I prefer Infantry Platoons to Veteran Squads. At roughly 2/3 the cost, an Infantry Squad can net you a lot more guys on the field, granted each unit may not be seen as effective, they can be a lot more survivable. I can totally understand how Al'Rahem would be seen as a less desirable unit as compared to a CCS with Creed. However, he does give you an opportunity to outflank more units, and deliver orders further up the battlefield while also having a decent combat edge if flanked by 4 melta troopers in a Chimera. Outflanking with an infantry platoon seems to work best as a 30man blob, or 2 squads in Chimeras, as previously stated.

From personal experience, I would say it's really tit for tat. The viability of Al'Rahem more rests on the composition of the rest of your army. If you are heavily employing Veteran squads, it does not really make a lot of sense to throw in a platoon of lesser guys to perform an outflanking maneuver when you can get your Veterans on the table via Valkyrie or Tactical Genius. If you play more of a platoon based army, then Al'Rahem adds a decent amount of mobility simply by shoving a (sometimes frightening, by sheer numbers) unit half way up the board, sometimes behind your enemies.

The standard platoon I run with Al'Rahem is as follows, and I think reflects on the majority of people who choose to run him:

Platoon Command Squad
4 Melta Guns
Captain Al'Rahem
Chimera

Infantry Squad x3
Plasma Gun (Againt MEQ, TEQ) / Flamer (Against anything else)
Power Weapon

Commissar
Power Weapon

All in all, it's not even that big of a points dump, gives you a large unit where you could really use it (remember your Astropaths!) and gives you some tank busting potential, while all scoring and only offering 3KP.

EDIT:

I may have to retract part of my statement, as I am at work without the BRB (but I have my codex with me). When forming a Combined Squad, they count as a single unit. If you form a Combined Squad during deployment, can you then give the entire thing Scout from Creed's "Tactical Genius"? I can see that making Al'Rahem less useful.

I plan on Creed using his tactical genius to outflank my 3 LR Squadron of 2 Plasma Boat Executioners and a Bolter Boat Demolisher. Rude surprise to be had for my opponent.

No you cant outflank an entire platoon with creed, you can only ourflank 1 unit. Meaning you can only choose a unit within that platoon, either the HWS...

Codex says: Each Infantry Platoon counts as a single troops choice on the force organization chart when deploying, and is rolled for collectivly when rolling for reserves....

I take it to mean that a platoon is a single unit. They travle as one. I get his as they come in from reserve as one, and all different squads are combined to make up and form one platoon...which is one troops choice, which is a unit. They travel (or are suposed to travel) as one MASSIVE unit.



And when codex says: "...and is rolled for collectivly when rolling for reserves" why do you have to roll for each squad in Al's Platoon?

Creeds rule specifies "unit", an Infantry Platoon is not a unit, it is a troops choice. Creeds Tactical Genius would need to say, "...choose a single infantry or vehicle ORGANIZATIONAL CHOICE in your army." for that to work.

odorofdeath wrote:. I've had opponents think that they could assault the contents of a dedicated transport after shooting the transport, "because its dedicated". .

Page 67 says otherwise.