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I don’t have my rule book with me so I will have to look up the rule later,
But isn’t there a rule that if you are closer than 2" from your target you ignore all cover saves? Or something to that affect... I think it is in the area terrain section.

That 2 inch rule is for shooting out of area terrain. If my boyz are shooting at your guard 1 inch away but on the other side of a small wall, you still get cover.

-cgmckenzie

Fireknife wrote:If you're aiming that at me Jid I don't see how its doesn't fit my earlier post. The BRB states the DOG hits automatically. Taking a cover save is part of resolving whether or not you actually hit. So wouldn't that mean you don't get the cover save because whether or not it hits has already been resolved? (Hope that came out like I was thinking it)

to hit - to wound - take saves - apply damage

Thats the order. Hitting automatically simply means you dont roll to hit. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with your ability to take saves.

arch1angel wrote:I don’t have my rule book with me so I will have to look up the rule later,
But isn’t there a rule that if you are closer than 2" from your target you ignore all cover saves? Or something to that affect... I think it is in the area terrain section.

No, there isnt.

There is a rule called "firing out of area terrain" which means you do not *grant* a cover save to a unit outside of area terrain [due to you shooting through the terrain] as long as you are within 2" of the edge of the terrain, but this has absolutely no bearing on this situation.

nosferatu1001 wrote:to hit - to wound - take saves - apply damage

Thats the order. Hitting automatically simply means you dont roll to hit. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with your ability to take saves.

I concede. Logically it seems like you shouldn't get a cover save from someone about to get run over. But if you treat it like a normal shot you should. I'd still bring it up before you begin playing so in case it did come up you didn't spend 10 min debating whether you did or didn't.

You simply have no case against a cover save. You can take cover saves against any glancing or penetrating hit, unless stated otherwise. If DoG is a shooting or cc attack, you would get a cover save vs any DoG attack done with a ranged weapon. If it's something else you would still get a cover save, as nothing prevents you from taking the saves. As per RAW, you could even take cover saves from ramming attacks, though this is stretching it quite far.

Logically, the KFF is exactly the same when running over the melta as if the melta is standing still in front of the weagon and shooting it from 1" away. In both cases the wagon would get a cover save because of the force field protecting it. As a melta won't stop gigantic metal monstrosity going at full speed dead in its tracks, the shot is probably done before the tank touches the meltagunner, anyways.

And for the "hits autmatically" thing. Templates hit vehicles automatically, too. Does this mean that flicker-fielded DE vehicles and bjorn can't take their invulnerable saves against them? Do templates automatically wound models they hit? I guess not.

So, bringing this up before the game is actually trying to gain an unfair advantage, as the rules on this are as solid as a rock.

Fireknife wrote:I concede. Logically it seems like ...

Ah, well you see that is where you went wrong. The rules, both RAW and RAI, are frequently illogical.

Jidmah wrote:And for the "hits autmatically" thing. Templates hit vehicles automatically, too. Does this mean that flicker-fielded DE vehicles and bjorn can't take their invulnerable saves against them? Do templates automatically wound models they hit? I guess not.

I see what you did there. Invulnerable saves are not the same as cover saves. By rule invulnerable saves are given unless specifically stated that they aren't allowed. I believe that you will concede that template weapons do not allow cover saves (which is the topic of discussion). So if you're going to say that autohit=template hit then the KFF would not work since it gives a cover save. If you're not saying that autohit=template hit then you have brought up a strawman argument that has no meaning here.

No, you missed my point by a wide margin. Fireknife said that auto-hitting prevents a model from taking saves, because he claimed that resolving a hit and hitting is the same. I proved him wrong, that's all.

Templates only deny cover because they say so. I randomly picked them because it's the most common way to auto-hit. Replace all templates in my example with the Weirdboyz "Zzap"-power if that helps you to see what I mean. That power neither denies cover or invulnerable saves, nor does it forgo wounding or penetrating rolls, but it still auto-hits.

Also, pulling a single sentence out of the context of a post and calling it a strawman argument is hypocritical at best.

I quoted an entire paragraph that you seperated from the rest of your argument so it's hardly one sentence taken out of context. That your intended meaning wasn't clear isn't my fault either.
However, the rule is clear (MRB p62) that if a vehicle is entitled to a cover save then it may take it. So as long as the vehicle is within 6" of the KFF when it tank shocks a model it will get the save vs a shooting attack. It doesn't get the save vs melee weapons via both the KFF rule and the general melee combat rules.

And your point is...?