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Grey Templar wrote:

Ascalam wrote:That the most powerful psyker in the universe (sez you) didn't do the same with Terra during the HH to keep it safe, or just use said power to fling the entire astroid belt across the Sol system into the warmaster's fleet?

That it has never been part of the fluff until it got retconned in in a very hamfisted way, along with making Sorcery ok for the GK to use (it was previously anathema ) and alien/dameon wargear/tech totally kosher (it was previously heresy).

'Tech from the dark age of technology' = 'handwave because we say so' in humanity's case. If the Admech had this kind of tech on hand they would have given it to the Warmaster when they all joined him, and he would have been dropping the Moon on the Emperor's palace

Here is why the E didn't hide Terra or toss asteroids in his direction. He didn't realise how far Horus had fallen. he still thought he could redeem him.

And just because the Ad Mech has the Tech doesn't mean they are just giving it out to anyone. it also isn't like everyone in the Ad Mech knows all about what they have. they keep secrets from each other too.

I think by the time the huge spiky fleet daubed in chaos insignia was bombarding eath back into the dark ages he might have clued on a bit If not horus personally he surely (Sarcasm: in his iiiiinfinite godlike wisdom) gathered where the rest of the fleet was aligned... He could have neutralized the threat by making them all 'fall to their knees in awe' like he did before, fron which position it's damn hard to pilot a starship

Horus wasn't 'everyone'. Most of the Admech went over to him and supported him, giving him their deeprest darkest secrets and groovy tech to mix up with warpstuff. If you're fanatically loyal to someone like that you don't hold out on them with something that uber

daveNYC wrote:And as far as sticking Holy Terra in the warp for safekeeping, that is probably a horrible idea. Terra is over twice as big, and there's the problem of what exactly would end up happening if you encased the source of the astronomicon in a Geller field, and then dunked the whole mess in the warp. Would it be the world's biggest fishing lure to every warp predator? Would the field end up containing the astronomicon's power in some way and lead to all sorts of grimdark deadness?

I imagine it would be something similar to sticking a Portable Hole in a Bag of Holding (I apologize to all the non-D&D nerds who didn't get that) only on an exponentially larger scale. The only logical outcome would be a complete and total re-boot of the franchise.

There are times when i think that this would be a good idea.

The pre-existing fluff has been so heavily retconned, rewritten and butchered that it's harder to track it all (from beginning to current) than follow the Marvel universe's alternate timelines/crossover worlds.

If certain Black Library authors could be persuaded to read the fluff before they add more detail to it, and certain codex writers could be reined in and told to stop invalidating/changing the established universe on a whim the franchise would be fine.

Moving the timeline along as a living background rather than keeping it static as a retconfest would also help

To date i've played four armies that have been invalidated by retcon or wiped out according to the rewritten fluff. I think they're doing it just to annoy me

Ascalam wrote:To date i've played four armies that have been invalidated by retcon or wiped out according to the rewritten fluff. I think they're doing it just to annoy me

Take advantage, threaten to start playing Space Wolves unless people give you money.

Eldar regularily slip planet sized craftworlds into the webway... so I guess it's not that crazy....

Their ships are sentient though, and were always intended to fly


Automatically Appended Next Post:

daveNYC wrote:

Ascalam wrote:To date i've played four armies that have been invalidated by retcon or wiped out according to the rewritten fluff. I think they're doing it just to annoy me

Take advantage, threaten to start playing Space Wolves unless people give you money.

Tempting....

Ascalam wrote:Their ships are sentient though,

uh, what?

Sorry- partial post due to break ending

Craftworlds are sentient, giant spaceships (the wraithbone infinity circuit is full of eldar souls. Farseers can talk to them, and they form a gestalt conciousness for the ship.).

I don't think i've actually read anywhere that the craftworlds themselves can webway jumo, but it wouldn't surprise me I had the impression that they send forces via webway from the craftworld, usually.

They can go into the webway but they are not sentient.

Well they are and they're not...

And they're not planet sized. They're city sized.

They're not and some of them are moon-sized.

I quote the Eldar codex, Page 14, left column.

"In a very real sense, the craftworld is a living entity, powered by psychic enery and responding in an organic way to the stimuli of Psychic forces"

that suggests the Craftworld is aware of its surroundings and as such should be viewed as Sapient.

Some plants respond to outside stimuli(Venus Fly-Trap anyone?) but aren't considered sentient.

Wraithbone should be considered the same. It's a psychoreactive compound, which of course means it would react to psychic forces.

Exactly. They mean a craftworld is a self-sustaining ecosystem - not that it thinks.

Plug one spirit stone into a wraithbone frame on legs-

Wraithguard. They can think for themselves (though they do get dreamy on occasion). They are sentient, as opposed to being programmed robots that have to be given a very specific set of orders and can't setp outside the box.


Plug a million such stones into a wraithbone shell- craftworld.

How are they not sentient? Did they wipe the spirit stones clean before plugging them in? I don't think so, dude

The Infinity Circuit is alive, and can think for itself/themselves- multiple minds after all

Farseers plug into the Infinity Circuit to ask advice from previous farseers and other deceased Eldar. I can give you page references if you need them If they wanted to just talk to themselves they'd not need to ask, and they don't always get answers they like.

The Infinity Circuit (which is the central nervous system of the craftworld) is a storage system for sentient minds/souls, which can communicate intelligently. Ergo it is sentient.

The infinty circuit is its own thing. The craftworld is another. AFAIK the infinity circuit doesn't control the craftworld, the Farseers do. Hence their asking of the infinity circuit what to do.

The infinity circuit is built into the craftworld. It runs through it's structure.

Your brain is one thing, your body another. Your brain is connected via the nervous system to your body

As the Inifinity circuit is an integral and vital part of the craftworld, and it's sentient, the craftworld is sentient.

The farseers commune with the circuit for advice. The craftworld is directed by the living farseers, but that doesn't negate the fact that the dead ones can still think. They are honoured advisors, rather than the actual ship captain.

Grey Templar wrote:I quote the Eldar codex, Page 14, left column.

"In a very real sense, the craftworld is a living entity, powered by psychic enery and responding in an organic way to the stimuli of Psychic forces"

that suggests the Craftworld is aware of its surroundings and as such should be viewed as Sapient.

Maybe some sort of AI?
Or sensor arrays and reaction algorithms written by Eldar?

The infinity circuit is supposed to be Eldar Limbo. Minds drift throughout it in a neverending sleepless dream.
I don't think the honoured dead are running the sewage system on Deck C.

AI are still sentient, if self aware. Sentience isn't a biological-only thing

GIven the state of eldar technology the sensor arrays (which we have too btw - eyes,ears, nose etc ) and reaction algorithms would be so complex that it would probably be self-aware anyway


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KamikazeCanuck wrote:The infinity circuit is supposed to be Eldar Limbo. Minds drift throughout it in a neverending sleepless dream.
I don't think the honoured dead are running the sewage system on Deck C.[/quote


Your brain has autosystems too. Do you have to make a mental effort to run your heart or make your stomach digest? Doesn't stop the system being sentient

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The infinity circuit is supposed to be Eldar Limbo. Minds drift throughout it in a neverending sleepless dream.
I don't think the honoured dead are running the sewage system on Deck C.

Why don't Dakka don't have "like" button...
This comment is a pure win

That's why it's not a good analogy. Infinity circuit does not = autonomic nervous system.

No, they are the higher brain functions, whilst the non-sentient autosystems handle the rest

Since you haven't yet presented a shred of proof that the craftworld is non-sentient, or even a convincing argument that it isn't, there's not much more point in discussing it, as it will always end up with you saying 'no it's not', with no supporting statement,reference or argument.

I'll keep to my belief that they are sentient, and you can go your own way

Uh yeah, I can't prove a negative. You have to prove your point.

I have

The craftworld is said in the fluff to react as a living thing.

There is a part of the craftworld's structure that is sentient, being a gestalt sentience that advises the living crew. The spirit stones are grafted into the ship's structure, unable to leave it until physically removed and reimplanted into a more mobile shell (wraithlord/wraithguard). They have the capacity to reason and the full gamut of other emotions, as well as sequential memory. In short they are sentient.

Ergo the ship is sentient.

You are saying it isn't with jack but 'because i say so' as an argument. It is possible to prove a negative.


IE:

I postulate that the moon is made of cheese (a classic trope)

You say it isn't.

You fly to the moon, and find that it is not. Or you talk to a learned authority who has firsthand experience of the matter at hand. You can then present proofs that my claim is inaccurate. Just saying it's not doesn't make you right without proof.


A logical premise then:

Does any permanent part of the ship that isn't living crew have the ability to communicate with said crew in a rational and intelligent manner?

If so, the ship is sentient, and also intelligent. They are different concepts.

Webster:

Definition of SENTIENT
1: responsive to or conscious of sense impressions <sentient beings>
2: aware
3: finely sensitive in perception or feeling

All three of these definiitions have fluff backing. They are aware, they have finely tuned perceptions (sensors) and they are responsive to sense impressions (they react to stimuli)

Only one of these is required to be sentient. Craftworlds are all three.

Intelligent:

Definition of INTELLIGENT
1a : having or indicating a high or satisfactory degree of intelligence and mental capacity b : revealing or reflecting good judgment or sound thought : skillful
2a : possessing intelligence b : guided or directed by intellect : rational
3a : guided or controlled by a computer; especially : using a built-in microprocessor for automatic operation, for processing of data, or for achieving greater versatility — compare dumb 7 b : able to produce printed material from digital signals <an intelligent copier>


Craftworlds are guided by intellect, in the form of the Infinity Circuit advising the crew. The souls within the circuit are rational and intelligent.

The autosystems you alluded to for sewage control are also intelligent, in that they are guided by computer.

I'm pretty sure a craftworld has the ability to produce material from digital signals, thoug it would be considered a bit outre..

If you argue the infinity circuit as seperate from the craftworld (not sure how, given that the whole craftworld is built around it) then it would not qualify for 1a, but the other points would stand.

Explain how the infinity circuit is actually guiding the ship. If you are saying it is guiding the ship by communicating with the farseer then that is equivalent to saying an Imperial Ship is sentient because it is being guided by it's captain who is sentient.

Is the Imperial ship giving him advice (rather than just a readout of sensor information)? I don't think so.


In any case, that's from the defiitiion of Intelligent, not Sentient, if you'll actually read the post properly

Guided by intellect: The Infinity circuit is intelligent. It provides instruction and advice to the crew. It guides them by intellect. Guiding someone or something and controlling it's movements directly are not quite the same thing.

If you have trouble with this abnormally simple concept feel free to ignore that point. The craftworld still qualifies under others as intelligent.

Ok guy, you want to take your arrogant tone down a notch there? You think you've made all these brilliant points but all you've done is backpedal and talk in circles. The ship isn't sentient now but just intelligent and some other bs.

Do you even bother to read the other person's post before you claim BS and backpedalling? Or do you find that insulting someone lets you off the hook for having an actual answer?


Read the dictionary definitiions i gave you.

I'm not being arrogant. I'm telling you that the fluff fits the definition of sentient perfectly on all points.

Therefore a craftword is sentient. No backpedalling there. No talking in circles. Check the definition carefully and try to refute me. If you can argue convincingly that none of the points is true of a craftworld then i will acknowledge that a craftworld is not sentient.

The Craftworld is also intelligent. If you'll actually read the post i posited that the craftworld can be considered to be both sentient and on some levels intelligent. They are different states of being, and non mutually exclusive.

Your argument thus far has basically been 'no it's not' with no supporting argument or fluff reference to back it up.

Prove to me that the craftworld in no way meets the criteria for either sentience or intelligence and i will accede the point.

Where are your brilliant points against the craftworld's sentience or intelligence?

"Reacting" does not mean "sentience".

As I said earlier, certain kinds of plants "react" to conditions(plants have been known to grow towards light sources, the Venus Flytrap responds to stimuli, etc)--they are not considered sentient.

Wraithbone, of which a Craftworld is constructed, is known as a "psychoreactive compound". That means it reacts to psychic energy introduced into it.

That's the whole basis of the "Bonesingers" the Eldar have. They use psychic energy to shape the wraithbone.