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Made in us
Proud Triarch Praetorian





We are boned.
   
Made in us
Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch





dogma wrote:
sebster wrote:
At which point, we're left with you either insisting that no two people ever get together and conspire to do anything, or there isn't a categorical difference between actual conspiracies and fantasies about the Rothschilds. Either way, you're being incredibly silly.


There's a third possibility. Biccat is following in the illustrious footsteps of our other conservative set-piece.


When someone imagines that the News Of The World scandal is a "real world conspiracy of power" that "really threaten[s] democracy" and has the potential to "harm the welfare of its citizens", there's nothing absurd about that at all.

Or, as I'm sure you meant to write, "left wing absurdist conspiracy theories are srs business while right wing conspiracy theories are 'absolute nonsense,' 'exciting games of make believe,' 'fantasy games,' and 'incredibly silly.'"

Because Rupert Murdoch is a Bondesque villain and the Rothchilds are simply innocent bystanders.

(not saying that I believe any conspiracies about Rothchilds, but that both positions are equally silly)

text removed by Moderation team. 
   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

Wait, are you suggesting that Rupert Murdoch is left wing?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/07/22 17:49:55


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Eternal Plague

I think the challenge here for biccat is that he must try and present his side of an argument with objective rationale and data.

Such as it is, debating dogma and sebster is a case of banging one's head against a wall if you simply argue based on generalizations and unsupported fact.

Broad blanketing statements tend not to do well. You also need to explain yourself at length and be prepared to argue your point and subsequent challenges to said point without losing your objectivity in the matter.

   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

FYI. did you know that pathetic liberal tree huggers are getitng freebies because they are socialists.I t is vital that we run them out of the country. Wha tnext? Allowing in foreigners? Oops. They do it already!!!

[UnionJackForever] Revoluotionsville


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I DON'T BELIEVE THE RESPONSES ON HERE... HERE COME THE PC BRIGADE AND THE NANNY STATE! LIBERALS ARE PROMOTING TEENAGE PREGNANCY BECAUSE THE COUNTRY IS FULL.. SEVEN WORDS: HAVE TWO STRIKES AND YOU'RE OUT.

Mad as hell at PC Goons England

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/07/22 20:53:19


I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

biccat wrote:
When someone imagines that the News Of The World scandal is a "real world conspiracy of power" that "really threaten[s] democracy" and has the potential to "harm the welfare of its citizens", there's nothing absurd about that at all.


You realize that the criteria you've outlined is fulfilled by the, apparently widespread, collusion that existed between the police, and News of the World reporters, right?

You're the one that drummed this up into something about the Murdochs with essentially no cause.

biccat wrote:
Or, as I'm sure you meant to write, "left wing absurdist conspiracy theories are srs business while right wing conspiracy theories are 'absolute nonsense,' 'exciting games of make believe,' 'fantasy games,' and 'incredibly silly.'"


Wait, what? Since when is the idea that the Rothschild family controls the world a conspiracy theory that's exclsuive to the right-wing? Conspiracy theories don't usually hold to standard political ideologies, they tend to be things that result from a jumble of elements falling in multiple places along the colloquial continuum.

Anyway, its amazing that you could have discerned all that from a comment that related entirely to your behavior, and not what else was being said in the thread.

biccat wrote:
Because Rupert Murdoch is a Bondesque villain and the Rothchilds are simply innocent bystanders.

(not saying that I believe any conspiracies about Rothchilds, but that both positions are equally silly)


You're the only one that mentioned the Murdochs. It is possible to talk about News of the World without talking about the Murdochs.

Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Eternal Plague

dogma wrote:It is possible to talk about News of the World without talking about the Murdochs.


That makes it less sensational and all the less reason to talk about it.

   
Made in us
Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch





WarOne wrote:I think the challenge here for biccat is that he must try and present his side of an argument with objective rationale and data.

Um, no.

I'm not going to debate whether we landed on the moon, whether Booth assassinated Lincoln, or whether Obama was really born in Hawaii.

These are silly conspiracy theories. So is believing that the NotW scandal is a "real world conspiracy of power" that "threaten[s] democracy" and may "harm the welfare of its citizens."

text removed by Moderation team. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Eternal Plague

biccat wrote:
WarOne wrote:I think the challenge here for biccat is that he must try and present his side of an argument with objective rationale and data.

Um, no.


That is exactly the problem.

You refuted a statement made by another Dakka-ite by stating in three words or less your position.

Now you gave a further explanation after that in subsequent posts against sebster, but the initial short and brief answer did not suffice.

   
Made in us
Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch





WarOne wrote:
biccat wrote:
WarOne wrote:I think the challenge here for biccat is that he must try and present his side of an argument with objective rationale and data.

Um, no.


That is exactly the problem.

You refuted a statement made by another Dakka-ite by stating in three words or less your position.


You'll have to explain better, because I'm not understanding your objection to my post. Are you upset that I used multiple paragraphs?

edit: and on topic, it appears that the GOP has passed a solution to the "debt crisis" through the house, but fell short by a mere 4 votes in the Senate. If only four Democrats had supported the bill, it could have been sent to the President's desk right away.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/07/23 02:05:21


text removed by Moderation team. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Eternal Plague

biccat wrote:You'll have to explain better, because I'm not understanding your objection to my post. Are you upset that I used multiple paragraphs?


My point: When debating or talking with sebster and dogma on a subject, make sure to include complete and logical reasoning when discussing anything with them. Also explain at length and try to close any logical loopholes.

The sequence of events:

You stated a position.

When conspiracy theorists debunk other conspiracy theorists while advancing their own, it's amusing as hell.


sebster responds:

Are you trying to describe anything anyone other than warpcrafter wrote as a 'conspiracy'? Don't be silly.


You respond back:

Of course not.


Result:

sebster and dogma then pile on their famous breakdown of an argument and haranguing of the fallacies of your line of thinking when you respond, complete with snide comments and belittling of your point.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/07/23 03:10:27


   
Made in us
Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch





WarOne wrote:You respond back:

Of course not.


I see where the problem lies.

I was using sarcasm. Obviously I should have typed it in blue.

text removed by Moderation team. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Eternal Plague

biccat wrote:
WarOne wrote:You respond back:

Of course not.


I see where the problem lies.

I was using sarcasm. Obviously I should have typed it in blue.


The whole line of discussion degenerates after that one statement. You have to be careful around them or else get drawn into a debate that some posters cannot walk out of without emotional outbursts or looking like an idiot at the end of a smart whip.

I'm trying to protect you from yourself. That and my personal vendetta to try and act in a logical and reasonable manner around sebster and dogma.

   
Made in us
Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch





WarOne wrote:That and my personal vendetta to try and act in a logical and reasonable manner around sebster and dogma.

This sounds like a worthwhile goal that will end in a satisfactory conclusion.

text removed by Moderation team. 
   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





biccat wrote:When someone imagines that the News Of The World scandal is a "real world conspiracy of power" that "really threaten[s] democracy" and has the potential to "harm the welfare of its citizens", there's nothing absurd about that at all.


Umm, collusion between the police and politicians with major news groups is a very serious business. It isn't speculative at all, but now a matter of public record.

Or, as I'm sure you meant to write, "left wing absurdist conspiracy theories are srs business while right wing conspiracy theories are 'absolute nonsense,' 'exciting games of make believe,' 'fantasy games,' and 'incredibly silly.'"


First up, this has nothing to do with left or right wing. Murdoch's media influence crosses both sides of politics, he'll work with anyone that is willing to cut him a good deal. Reportedly his own politics are fairly liberal, he started FOX News because he saw an opportunity for a new market, nothing more.

Second up, very generally speaking I'd say there's far more conspiracy nonsense on the left. Both sides have their fair share of conspiracies, but left wing conspiracies drift a little in from the extreme fringes while rightwing conspiracies tend not to.

Because Rupert Murdoch is a Bondesque villain and the Rothchilds are simply innocent bystanders.


No, because one has a significant place in a real world conspiracy, and the other does not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
dogma wrote:You're the only one that mentioned the Murdochs. It is possible to talk about News of the World without talking about the Murdochs.


I was very much talking about Murdoch.

It really shouldn't be a very big deal at all for people to state that Murdoch trades favourable coverage in his newspapers for promises of more open media ownership laws. Every single one of Murdoch's newspapers in the US, UK and Australia supported the Iraq war, all 170+ of them, and in the wake of the invasion the leaders of all three countries attempted to pass laws freeing up media ownership.

Oh, and before biccat freaks out with another bias claim, he should note that Blair was a Labour PM.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
biccat wrote:These are silly conspiracy theories. So is believing that the NotW scandal is a "real world conspiracy of power" that "threaten[s] democracy" and may "harm the welfare of its citizens."


Yeah, noting the collusion between politicians, government agents and major newspapers is pure fantasy. The statements put on record stating that such collusion took place only came from the United Kingdom, and we all knows that's the fictional setting of all those Harry Potter movies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
WarOne wrote:You refuted a statement made by another Dakka-ite by stating in three words or less your position.

Now you gave a further explanation after that in subsequent posts against sebster, but the initial short and brief answer did not suffice.


The problem has nothing to do with how he presented his argument, the problem is that he read some completely ridiculous left/right element to my argument that just wasn't there. It doesn't matter how well or how poorly you argue, when you filter everything through 'how is the right wing being unfairly picked' you're going to produce some ludicrous arguments and look silly as a result.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2011/07/25 04:29:57


“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Eternal Plague

sebster wrote:
WarOne wrote:You refuted a statement made by another Dakka-ite by stating in three words or less your position.

Now you gave a further explanation after that in subsequent posts against sebster, but the initial short and brief answer did not suffice.


The problem has nothing to do with how he presented his argument, the problem is that he read some completely ridiculous left/right element to my argument that just wasn't there. It doesn't matter how well or how poorly you argue, when you filter everything through 'how is the right wing being unfairly picked' you're going to produce some ludicrous arguments and look silly as a result.


I was completely ignoring the subject matter.

First off, I'm horribly biased on the matter to make an objective comment. Being utterly disgusted with the media in general has made my attempts to be objective useless. So to try and contribute something positive, I focused on biccat's response to you.

Trying to point out that if he wanted to respond in a matter that would help his position was my intent, providing more than three words is in general a helpful thing.

   
Made in us
Charging Wild Rider







Azure wrote:Solve debt problems? Establish a tax rate that makes sense, right now it starts low, goes high, then low again. If it's going to increase it should, for God's sakes, at least try to stay highest around the upper echelons of the rich where 35% means alot more


You're of course forgetting that it's the rich who pass the laws in this country.....

And so, due to rising costs of maintaining the Golden Throne, the Emperor's finest accountants spoke to the Demigurg. A deal was forged in blood and extensive paperwork for a sub-prime mortgage with a 5/1 ARM on the Imperial Palace. And lo, in the following years the housing market did tumble and the rate skyrocketed leaving the Emperor's coffers bare. A dark time has begun for the Imperium, the tithes can not keep up with the balloon payments and the Imperial Palace and its contents, including the Golden Throne, have fallen into foreclosure. With an impending auction on the horizon mankind holds its breath as it waits to see who will gain possession of the corpse-god and thus, the fate of humanity...... 
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

biccat wrote: it appears that the GOP has passed a solution to the "debt crisis" through the house, but fell short by a mere 4 votes in the Senate. If only four Democrats had supported the bill, it could have been sent to the President's desk right away.


Oh for the days when parties didn't matter.

Sweet, sweet branding.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
sebster wrote:
It really shouldn't be a very big deal at all for people to state that Murdoch trades favourable coverage in his newspapers for promises of more open media ownership laws. Every single one of Murdoch's newspapers in the US, UK and Australia supported the Iraq war, all 170+ of them, and in the wake of the invasion the leaders of all three countries attempted to pass laws freeing up media ownership.


I suppose the real question is whether or not that is conspiratorial.

sebster wrote:
Oh, and before biccat freaks out with another bias claim, he should note that Blair was a Labour PM.


Murdochs like power, not ideology.

Good on them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/07/25 05:28:19


Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





dogma wrote:Oh for the days when parties didn't matter.

Sweet, sweet branding.


More to the point, the REpublican plan was just political silliness, passing a piece of legislation with no chance of getting through senate or past the president. There was nothing constructive or useful in the plan, and if you look at the content you'd see it clearly contains things most Republicans would shy away from if they thought it had a hope in hell of actually passing. It was cheap politics, and the only point of it was to allow folk like biccat to pretend the Republicans are trying to be constructive on this issue.


I suppose the real question is whether or not that is conspiratorial.


I guess that depends on the exact specifics of the deal struck between the two parties. If the relationship called for specific support for Iraq in exchange for legislation on media market reform then there's conspiracy, but if it was general 'you do me favours when you see a chance and I'll promise to do you favours when I see a chance' then it's just regular old corruption.

Regardless of what word we use, biccat's argument where he pretends it doesn't exist, and that talking about it is somehow leftwing is just really odd.

Murdochs like power, not ideology.

Good on them.


I pretty much think the opposite. I mean, if Murdoch's plan was to manipulate his media ownership to drive some ideology and place himself at the front of this new groundswell of [whatever] politics and eventually rule over us as a king, well it'd be evil but at least I'd admire the ambition.

But he just wants to make money. It's just as evil, but it's got a whole other layer of mundane added on top.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/07/25 07:18:32


“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

sebster wrote:
More to the point, the REpublican plan was just political silliness, passing a piece of legislation with no chance of getting through senate or past the president. There was nothing constructive or useful in the plan, and if you look at the content you'd see it clearly contains things most Republicans would shy away from if they thought it had a hope in hell of actually passing. It was cheap politics, and the only point of it was to allow folk like biccat to pretend the Republicans are trying to be constructive on this issue.


Yep, political success. Not unlike Rick "I surreptitiously increase taxes" Perry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
sebster wrote: I mean, if Murdoch's plan was to manipulate his media ownership to drive some ideology and place himself at the front of this new groundswell of [whatever] politics and eventually rule over us as a king, well it'd be evil but at least I'd admire the ambition.


Why? What is the distinction?

In both cases person A has taken advantage of people Y.

Why does it matters if he is lying, or telling the truth?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/07/25 07:47:04


Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





dogma wrote:Yep, political success. Not unlike Rick "I surreptitiously increase taxes" Perry.


I remember a time when Perry's mix of cynical politics and strong social conservatism made him the guy we're supposed to be afraid of. Right now Bachman is leading the polls, and we're left kind of hoping someone like Perry can win the nomination.

Why? What is the distinction?

In both cases person A has taken advantage of people Y.

Why does it matters if he is lying, or telling the truth?


It's just... there's been talk of floating cities for a long time. Huge boats that wander the high seas, never docking because they're too large to enter any port, instead having fleets of smaller boats scuttling out to them. The idea is bat gak crazy but awesome, and generally built around forming some new utopian society free of the failings of past societies. The latest in a long line of really impractical big boat dreams showed up a couple of years back, still as bat gak crazy as ever, except they weren't promising any kind of visionary utopia, they were just promising people could avoid being a resident of any country - it was a tax avoidance scheme.

Imagine Rapture, but it wasn't to build a new libertarian society, but just to avoid taxes.

While evil is evil, at least if it's part of some seriously badass scheme that's something. But in Murdoch's case it's just to make money. I'm offended by the lack of imagination more than anything.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/07/25 13:06:59


“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Et In Arcadia Ego





Canterbury

Let's try and stay vaguely on the topic at hand, we don't need or want anecdotes about the politics and or beliefs of other forum members. Ta.

The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
 
   
Made in us
Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch





sebster wrote:Umm, collusion between the police and politicians with major news groups is a very serious business. It isn't speculative at all, but now a matter of public record.

Except it's not a threat to democracy and doesn't pose real harm to the citizenry.

I can point out all day the left-wing groups that Soros sponsors. But when I start claiming that it's proof of a nationwide conspiracy to corrupt the government and institute communism it delves into the realm of conspiracy theory.

sebster wrote:First up, this has nothing to do with left or right wing.

Sure it does. Murdoch is a target because his media empire tends to advocate a right-wing position, as you state below. Unless you want to pretend that the political aspects of News Corp takeover of BSkyB is nonpolitical. Actually, you might believe that government is capable of acting nonpolitically, but you would be wrong.

sebster wrote:Reportedly his own politics are fairly liberal

Where's Melissia when you need her?

sebster wrote:It really shouldn't be a very big deal at all for people to state that Murdoch trades favourable coverage in his newspapers for promises of more open media ownership laws. Every single one of Murdoch's newspapers in the US, UK and Australia supported the Iraq war, all 170+ of them, and in the wake of the invasion the leaders of all three countries attempted to pass laws freeing up media ownership.

Oh, and before biccat freaks out with another bias claim, he should note that Blair was a Labour PM.

The bias claim isn't that you're against certain political groups, it's that you're against certain ideas. One such idea is the Iraq War. Your bias against the war is clouding your judgment. It's not possible that people reasonably support both the Iraq War and fewer laws against media ownership. Therefore, there must be some conspiracy.

Otherwise, you would note that all of the non-News Corp companies who opposed the Iraq War would benefit from more media control, and therefore were engaged in a similar conspiracy against Blair, Bush, etc.

text removed by Moderation team. 
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

biccat wrote:
Except it's not a threat to democracy and doesn't pose real harm to the citizenry.


Wait, are you claiming that collusion between the state and and the media is not a threat to democracy?

Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in ie
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot





Imagination land

Now bare with me, this is going to get a little crazy, and alot stupid.

What if we just start over? Wipe all debts and start over, act like we never got so deep in gak creek. What would happen? TBH I have no idea.

OR

Go back to trading for goods and services. That would be alot more fun, our civilization would prob stagnate in a new dark age, but aslong as someone keeps the internet going, its all good, right?

OR

Start a big war with someone, cut the population back down, and spread the wealth amongst the survivors. Highlander style
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

biccat wrote:
WarOne wrote:That and my personal vendetta to try and act in a logical and reasonable manner around sebster and dogma.

This sounds like a worthwhile goal that will end in a satisfactory conclusion.


So you do not intend to behave in a manner consistent with logic or reason?

Good to know, and illustrative of my earlier point.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/07/25 13:59:14


Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in us
Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch





dogma wrote:
biccat wrote:
Except it's not a threat to democracy and doesn't pose real harm to the citizenry.


Wait, are you claiming that collusion between the state and and the media is not a threat to democracy?


Yup.

Toastedandy wrote:Go back to trading for goods and services. That would be alot more fun, our civilization would prob stagnate in a new dark age, but aslong as someone keeps the internet going, its all good, right?

We already do this. Money is simply an intermediary.

text removed by Moderation team. 
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

biccat wrote:
Yup.


I think you're confusing the concepts of threat and detriment. A thing can be a threat without being intrinsically detrimental. For example, our military presence in Iraq is a threat to the Iraqi state, but it is not intrinsically detrimental to it.

There are many cases in which state-media collusion has been detrimental to democracy. This indicates that state-media collusion can be detrimental to democracy. As such, state-media collusion is a threat to democracy in the same sense that the presence of a military force is a threat to all entities that do not control it; given that military forces have often been detrimental to non-controlling actors in the past.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/07/25 14:05:30


Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

biccat wrote:
sebster wrote:Umm, collusion between the police and politicians with major news groups is a very serious business. It isn't speculative at all, but now a matter of public record.

Except it's not a threat to democracy and doesn't pose real harm to the citizenry.

I can point out all day the left-wing groups that Soros sponsors. But when I start claiming that it's proof of a nationwide conspiracy to corrupt the government and institute communism it delves into the realm of conspiracy theory.



A key part of running a conspiracy is to keep it secret. That's hardly the case if you can print lists of groups that Soros sponsors.

The Murdoch case is different because they have been going to all kinds of lengths to keep things secret.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

Kilkrazy wrote:
A key part of running a conspiracy is to keep it secret. That's hardly the case if you can print lists of groups that Soros sponsors.

The Murdoch case is different because they have been going to all kinds of lengths to keep things secret.


Additionally, in order for a thing to qualify as a conspiracy it must be either illicit or illegal.

Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
 
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