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DarthSpader wrote:i would argue that damage results would be saved against. if your raider takes 6 pens and 4 glances resulting in 4 explodes, 2 immobilized, 2 wep destroyed and 2 shaken, you should roll saves on each of those effects. whatever fails applies to the vehicle. you cant just roll 10 dice and say ok i saved 4 so the vehicle is not exploded, but it takes the other results. (wich would wreck it anyway....)

That's not how you do it if you have a 4+ Cover save (that your Raider would have for being a skimmer moving flat out, for example). You'd roll 6 saves on the pens, 4 on the glances. Whatever is left the opponent rolls on the damage table.

There - the saves we know about are against hits. Bjorn's Inv save is also against hits, and that's the only vehicle with an Inv save that actually explains how to use it.

DarthSpader wrote:i would argue that damage results would be saved against. if your raider takes 6 pens and 4 glances resulting in 4 explodes, 2 immobilized, 2 wep destroyed and 2 shaken,

You would take the saves on the 6 pens and 4 glances *before* rolling on the damage table. Any hits that were not saved would be rolled on the damage table.

Edit: Ah, another page to the thread. With the same thing I just said. Oops.

nosferatu1001 wrote: every tournament ive been to this year, including 100+ player tournaments,

So you have been to 100+ tournaments so far this year... oh, i am sorry, more than that, 100+ PLAYER tournaments (what were the others, against robots or something?)
And every one ruled this way...

Yeah, Ok, I will discuss rules interpretations with people, but not if they blatantly lie and spin to skew facts in their favor.

Or, i am allowed to argue in kind:

The 400 GW sanctioned grand tournaments I attended this weekend all ruled that I was right, and furthermore, any rules changes i deem need to be made, i may do so due to the fact I use common sense in rulings.
I have this in writing, and notarized by Barack obama himself.

Back on subject- i do not have the rulebook in front of me, but I would argue that:
Ward saves prevents damage/ wounds from ANY SOURCE except those explicitly stated otherwise (eg necron warscythes, etc..).
Damage to a vehicle with a ward save was caused by difficult terrain, which in the rules EXPLICITLY state that ward saves may be used against it. Not that they cant, but they go out of the way to say they CAN.

I know the meme about arguing on the internet, and pretty much, when Mr. Tournament there throws around his 100+ tournaments in what, 7 months, I realize what i am facing is a losing cause, but my perspective is out there, and players can decide when they play a game.

CASTITAS hit the nail on the head here... Discuss before the game, and if you cant agree, ask for a ruling and move on.
besides, you might have 99 more tournaments to go to!

Or, you just fail at reading?

A tournament with more than 100 players. IndyGT, March this year. 113 from memory.

Sigh.

Seriously, ive used real rules (acknowledgng the gaps that dont currently allow Flickerfields to do anything), while you have so far presented no. Zip, zilch, nada, zero. Nothing.

You use invulnerable saves ON VEHCILES against, AT BEST, *HITS*.

Over to you - provide rules or concede.

Nos is correct. The rules mean that invulnerable saves (except for Bjorn) technically only work against wounds.

However since this is clearly silly and a bit odd, pretty much everyone (including all the people in this thread as far as I can tell) accept that you can use them for vehicles, and thus refer to the rules for cover saves which indicates that you take them against hits. i.e. before damage results are rolled for.

....which means they DO NOT work for Dangerous Terrain tests, because they do not give you a "hit" - they give you a result of "immobilised"

So to wrap up the whole DT thing...Pg 14 BRB
"On the roll of a 1, the model suffers a wound, with no armour or cover saves allowed."
As for vehicles...Pg 57 BRB
"A resulf of 1 means that the vehicle halts immediately and suffers an Immobilised damage result, so if it was attempting to enter difficult terrain it stops just outside."
And last but not least Invul saves...Pg 20 BRB
"Invulnerable saves are different to armour saves because they may always be taken."
So with that said, and yes I do play DE, I think that there is no reason why you woudn't get an invulnerable save from the FF, but I would ask a TO about dangerous terrain and go with that. It doesn't matter what we say as it is the TO who gets the final say. In friendly games however I have always been allowed to take a FF save on DT and I have always let others take them...aka The Most Important Rule!

TMIR is also "you shoudlnt take them, as you ONLY get to save HITs, and not RESULTS", because thats the actual resuls.

Its the rules you missed out that are most telling - you didnt include the rules for cover saves, which save against Hits, nor Bjorns rules for his invulnerable save (the ONLY rules we have for resolving inv saves) which also save against Hits.

A failed dangerous terrain test does not inflict a Hit, therefore you CANNOT save against it. Unless you houserule it.

Akroma06 wrote:So to wrap up the whole DT thing...Pg 14 BRB
"On the roll of a 1, the model suffers a wound, with no armour or cover saves allowed."
As for vehicles...Pg 57 BRB
"A resulf of 1 means that the vehicle halts immediately and suffers an Immobilised damage result, so if it was attempting to enter difficult terrain it stops just outside."
And last but not least Invul saves...Pg 20 BRB
"Invulnerable saves are different to armour saves because they may always be taken."
So with that said, and yes I do play DE, I think that there is no reason why you woudn't get an invulnerable save from the FF, but I would ask a TO about dangerous terrain and go with that. It doesn't matter what we say as it is the TO who gets the final say. In friendly games however I have always been allowed to take a FF save on DT and I have always let others take them...aka The Most Important Rule!

The most important rule is to have fun? How does taking inv saves to DT seem fun? lol

Regardless you brought up the rules again on how to take invul saves after taking wounds. So from the start your logic is flawed, as a vehicle doesnt take wounds.

My point is that the game is there to have fun...simply arguing about it will ruin the game. Any TO will say that you get an Invul from the FF, but like I said you should ask about DT before hand...wait a second where is the proof otherwise? Why can I not take the Invul save? Because it is damage done to a vehicle I am ALWAYS allowed to take the invul save. (codex special rules not withstanding, ie shield breaker rounds) Also why does it matter that much its a freaking 5++ you only have a 1 in 3 chance of passing anyway.

So to sum up, any opponent that says you cant take your invuln save (excluding DT because its pretty sketchy) is a Massive TFG that you should not play against!

Akroma06 wrote:My point is that the game is there to have fun...simply arguing about it will ruin the game. Any TO will say that you get an Invul from the FF, but like I said you should ask about DT before hand...wait a second where is the proof otherwise? Why can I not take the Invul save? Because it is damage done to a vehicle I am ALWAYS allowed to take the invul save. (codex special rules not withstanding, ie shield breaker rounds) Also why does it matter that much its a freaking 5++ you only have a 1 in 3 chance of passing anyway.

The proof has been given to you: you are ONLY allowed, AT BEST, to take your save against a HIT - penetrating or glancing.

Now, read the dangerous terrain rules. Please show me, page and paragraph, where it says you are HIT. Wait, it doesnt! You instead take the immobilsed *result*

Result /= Hit
Result /= Hit
Result /= Hit

Any more times? Cant make it any simpler.

And yet for infantry the result = wound...but you get the inv save so why not for vehicles?

You do not take invuls against hits... you take them against WOUNDS or against PENETRATION RESULTS.

You may roll 4 hits with your las cannons, but i am not taking flickerfields until you roll for and achieve either a penetration or a glance result. I am saving against the RESULT (before the roll to determine the severity of the result is taken).

difficult terrain is just a penetration or glance result that the outcome is pre-ordained.

So, therefore your argument about taking invul saves against HITS is faulty and wrong.

As stated earlier, it is best to get a TO's ruling before a tournament.

To say you can't take FF saves is absurd - that's the whole point of buying a flickerfield. You let the opponent roll to hit/glance/penetrate and then take the save, just like you do for normal invul saves on infantry. Admittedly, the game might drag out a bit if your opponent declares a lot of shots on your Venom/Raider/Ravager but to say you don't get a save at all is pathetic.

Abstract Catalyst wrote:To say you can't take FF saves is absurd - that's the whole point of buying a flickerfield. You let the opponent roll to hit/glance/penetrate and then take the save, just like you do for normal invul saves on infantry. Admittedly, the game might drag out a bit if your opponent declares a lot of shots on your Venom/Raider/Ravager but to say you don't get a save at all is pathetic.

With a very strict reading of the rules, vehicles can't take advantage of Cover saves, Armor saves, or Invul saves. The only thing they are allowed to use is an obscured save.

Of course, no one actually plays like that. The intention that the FF (and other vehicle saves) are supposed to work is very clear, and everyone allows those saves to be taken.

The only real issue is dangerous terrain checks. Because the rules for vehicle saves are non-existent, we need to do our best to extrapolate them.

My vote is that dangerous terrain on vehicles should work like dangerous terrain on non-vehicles. Meaning, you can take an Invul save, but no other type of save may be taken. But, this is simply an interpretation. There is no RAW answer.

No such thing as a, "obscured save".

Anglacon wrote:You do not take invuls against hits... you take them against WOUNDS or against PENETRATION RESULTS.

WRONG

Seriously - you need to read the rulebook, specifically how cover saves are taken.

Tehy are taken against Penetrating or Glancing HITS. For the last time.

The damage RESULT you do NOT save against. Its too late by this point.

Anglacon wrote:You may roll 4 hits with your las cannons, but i am not taking flickerfields until you roll for and achieve either a penetration or a glance result. I am saving against the RESULT (before the roll to determine the severity of the result is taken).

SOrry, you're wrong in terminology, which is probably where your confusion comes from. You roll penetrating or glancing hits - check your rulebook. You then roll on the damage chart and get a single result. There is no "severity" of the result - the result is a single number.

Anglacon wrote:difficult terrain is just a penetration or glance result that the outcome is pre-ordained.

Wrong. There is no "hit", there is no "glance" or "penetrate", there is simply the damage result "immobilised" - which means there is no penetrating or glanicng hit. And, what do you save agfainst? penetrating or glancing hits.

If you disagree - show some rules

Anglacon wrote:So, therefore your argument about taking invul saves against HITS is faulty and wrong.

No, it really isnt. See above.

Please, for the last time, provide RULES that back your position, not a flawed argument based on incorrect premises.

As stated earlier, it is best to get a TO's ruling before a tournament.

Nos is dead on. Not only with reasoning but also rules sources. People really do need to read the rules for vehicles.

Quick announcement, 1 thing in this thread has been seriously bugging me:

The declaration that any saves invul or Cover would be against "hits".

This is simply untrue, the saves are against "damaging hits".

Damaging hits would be defined as penetrating hits, or Glancing hits.

You do not roll cover saves as soon as the vehicle is hit by the attack, you roll when the vehicle is either Penetrated, or Glanced by the hit.

I know this is what has been meant by everyone who has been saying hits, but simply stating hits gives the "Damage result save" Camp ground to stand on by invalidating the "hits save" camp.

Only Damaging hits can be saved.

non-damaging hits have nothing to save.

Direct damage results cannot be saved.

I read my book and I still have not seen evidence. I have come out and quoted the BRB and given page numbers. I still want to know how it is different than infantry? You roll a 1 in dangerous terrain as infantry or a bike and you get an inv save. Why should a vehicle be different? You roll a one get a (slim) chance to save.

Guess you actually need to read the reasons here in the thread.

Here is a hint:

Infantry =/= Vehicles.

Because the way you damage vehicles is different?

You havent given any rules sources for vehicles, which is the problem. Quite a big one.

So, please - reread the rules for vehicles and cover saves, which are the ONLY general rules we have for making ANY saves on a vehicle - the ONLY ones. We have to assume that you can take them against invulnerable saves, and in the same way.

Note you save agisnt penetrating or glancing hits, and ONLY these. Dangerous terrain does not, at any point, generate a penetrating or glancing hit. So it doesnt work.
Demonstrate an actual rules based argument otherwise, as per the tenets of YMDC.

Huh cause going back I cannot see where anyone has quoted anything other than me so let he who has not sinned cast the first stone!
Yes there are no rules for inv saves on vehicles so how can you argue that you don't get the save. I was using the one example in the rulebook, infantry or more accurately jetbikes work better. I am being told that rolling a 1 on dangerous terrain has an effect, granted it does to both jetbikes and skimmers. Then a bike is able to make an inv save if it has one. That is the only precedent for dangerous terrain saves. So I use that to argue that since they would get a save then so should the vehicle with an inv.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Anglacon wrote:You do not take invuls against hits... you take them against WOUNDS or against PENETRATION RESULTS.

WRONG
You roll penetrating or glancing hits - check your rulebook.

I dont think we are playing the same game here...

You roll to HIT.

If it hits, then you roll an ARMOR PENETRATION ATTEMPT, eg, after i "hit", did I hit it good enough to cause damage?
but, to make it easy here,and to put it as simply as i can...


1. if you roll a "1" entering terrain, either on foot or by vehicle, damage occurs, be it a wound or immobilised.
2. ONLY Invunerable saves are allowed to deny this wound or damage result. This is stated in the RULEBOOK
3. A flickerfield is an invunerable save.


Therefore....

4. per the DT rules themselves, Flickerfields may prevent Dangerous terrain rolls of a "1'.

And FYI: obscured or cover saves are completely different than invul saves.

Instead of using Infantry as your comparison you could use another vehicle that has an invulnerable save like say, Bjorn.

If you insist on using the Infantry standard of Inv saves, then you do not get to use them at all on vehicles.

Lets see never owned a SW codex so if I tried to cite that I would be doing myself and everyone who reads this a disservice. I was using them as a reference since we obviously can take invul saves at some point in the game. My point was to counter the you roll a 1 then x happens argument. With after you roll a 1 for a jetbike he gets a save so after you roll a 1 for a venom you get a save.

I don't know if using Bjorn as an extra example is even a good idea, since his invuln save is worded different than the flickerfield. I LOVE DIFFERENT AUTHORS!!!

The wording is different but you have a choice;

Compare Infantry Inv saves to Vehicle Inv saves

or

Compare Vehicle Inv saves to Vehicle Inv saves.

I'll take on your Rulebook Challenge:

Dangerous terrain Page 14, last sentence: "On the roll of a 1, the model suffers a wound, with no armor or cover saves allowed(wounds and saves are explained in the next section)."

BRB Page 20, Invulnerable saves, 3rd through last sentence: "Models with wargear or abilities like these are allowed an Invulnerable aving throw. Invulnerable saves are different to armor saves because the may always be taken whenever the model suffers a wound - the Armor peircing value of attacking weapons has no effect. Even if a wound normally ignores all armour saves, an invulnerable save may still be taken."

BRB page 51, Unit Types, first Sentence of first non-bold paragraph: "In this section you will find the rules for each of these unit types, namely monstrous creatures, jump infantry, bikes & jetbikes, beasts & cavalry and artillery."

BRB page 51, Unit Types, Second Non-bold paragraph: "Except for the rules detailed in this section for each unit type, these units follow the same rules as infantry."

You would then have to re-read all of the vehicle Section of the rulebook(Pages 56-73), to see that there are absolutely zero references to vehicles ever getting wounded.

I will, however, quote the vehicle dangerous terrain failure result rules, Page 57, second paragraph under "terrain effects", third sentence: "A result of 1 means that the vehicle halts immediately and suffers an immobilized damage result, so if it was attempting to enter difficult terrain it stops just outside."

There you have it Akroma: rules backup to why you are dead wrong, invulnerable saves can generally only be taken by non-vehicle units, Bjorn the Fell-handed has specific rules for when his invul can be taken(which I will quote momentarily), Jet bikes are Infantry as far as rules go, except for where the bike and Jebike rules specifically differentiate themselves from Infantry; so they cannot be used to show why vehicles should get an invul save(bikes/jetbikes are far closer to infantry than vehicles).

Bjorn the fell handed can always use his "ward of the primarch" invulnerable save because it specifies when he uses it, SW Codex Page 49: "Famously resilient, Bjorn has a 5+ invulnerable saving throw against any glancing or penetrating hit inflicted upon him."

Flickerfield should have the same trigger applied to it for those players that wish the upgrade to actually work; since the vehicle Dangerous terrain test causes Neither a glancing, nor a penetrating hit, as such it can never be saved.