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Arg, after reading over in the You Make the Call section, I checked the trait and unfortunately it looks like the 6 dread list isn't legal. . .

It directly says you may you dreadnaughts as elite, or as heavy support. . . while right next to it with Be Swift as the Wind, it says And/or as

However armies of the imperium, in the most updated version will allow you to make the list...soo..

Armies of the Imperium? What is that some future codex that they shouldn't bother printing? What is that 3 marine codexes printed in the last 2 years, and nothing still for Orc's or Eldar?

I don't know what you're all talking about. If I saw 6 dreadnoughts lining up against my guard I'd laugh, out loud at that. 9+ las cannons against 6 Av 12 dreds that take up almost half of his points. Sounds fair to me...
And even If they do drop they still cant assault me so I'll probably be able to blow them up when they're just standing there in my turn. And they can kill what 4 guardsmen a turn + extra if their in flamer range (which they might not be after scattering).

It's all how you look at the situation, and what enemy you are fighting. Because one of my friends brother always takes large tankbusta mobs after repeating situations with armored companies. So he'd probably laugh as well.

Also what's this armies of the imperium stuff all about? Aint that the old inquisitor/assassin stuff at the end of the 3rd edt. rule book?

Armies of the Imperium is GW's version of amy builder, it's usually spot on the money with the rules. In fact this is the first instance I've found it has a problem

Its also completely unofficial as a rules source, just like AB or your homemade Excell lists (my preference). EVERYTHING must be checked against the printed rules for legality.

Im not saying it is a source for rules checks, it however usually picks up on the appropriate rules for you

Yea, I gotcha.

Its just that when I hear someone say, "But, Army Builder let me do it" I want to smack them upside the head with my rulebook. Hard.

AB or AotI should not be used as a basis for the legality of 6 Dread armies. I'm not saying that 6 dreads is illegal, just make sure you don't use the programs as your proof.

All things considered I'd give a pretty fair amount of weight to the accuracy, rules wise, of Armies of the Imperium. Army Builder is a different in that the rule sets and data files are all created by gamers in their spare time. AotI on the other hand is a GW licensed product they package it and they distribute it. So chances are they also do some testing on it before it ships, at the very least I would expect it to be as accurate as anything else they distribute. At the very least it is an offical GW released product so it's fairly hard to argue with anything it lists as accurate without an FAQ in hand.

A Marine with a Lascannon has a 1 in 3 chance to Penetrate a Dread's frontal armor with every shot. Toss in the assorted Plasma Guns, and things get even more problematic for Dreads. Even a Power Fist in a Tactical squad is a major threat to a Dread. Can't get all flustered by a list with 6 of them in it. That's the type of list that can be off the board in two turns.

2/3hit x 1/2pen x 1/2destroyed x 1/2 for reroll = 8.33% (repeating) chance of destruction per shot versus a Venerable Dread. And that's not counting smoke or terrain providing hull-down.  Making the Obscured roll makes it 2/3hit x 2/3glance x 1/6destroyed x 1/6 for reroll = 1.23% chance.

Simply put, if you run it well, and you use a normal amount (25% of the board) of terrain, a Dreadnought-heavy army is quite viable. It's not the be-all, end-all, but nothing is; everything is beatable.

citadel97501 writes:

I checked the trait and unfortunately it looks like the 6 dread list isn't legal. . .

It directly says you may you dreadnaughts as elite, or as heavy support. . . while right next to it with Be Swift as the Wind, it says And/or as

What? you may you write what as a direct quote? Are you sure?

Are you making the "exclusive or" case? As in; this or that, not both? That's different, there is no "exclusive or" in the text.  You might want to check the logic on or.  If a player takes a dreadnought as a heavy, and another as an elite, it does not violate that statement "dreadnaughts as elite, or as heavy support".  "Exclusive or" has to be specified, and it isn't.

For those who run the Techmarine HQ version, I have a question or two:

Do you typically run a pair of static dread firebases with a techmarine in the center? Or do you try to play more of a "peek around cover and snipe" style with the techmarines in cover?

If they're out in the open, are there any tricks to keeping them alive? Or is it the basic "Keep him behind a dread" tactic? Or, do people usually just ignore them? I can't say that I've ever seen a techmarine used in a serious game, so I don't know if they would draw fire or not.

Techmarines with venerable dreads do appear comparatively durable (obviously not a top army, but who cares if its fun, reasonably competative, and tactically challenging?). However, techmarines don't really work with drop pods, so I guess I'll have to try both versions. I've seen enough standard marine and terminator drop armies to extrapolate decent tactics for a dropped dread army. Unfortunately, I don't know what would be the best tactics when I'm trying to drag along a guy with a wrench. So rather than use poor tactics and decide the techmarine version is the sux, I'd like to get some tactical advice from those who have played the dread/techmarine combo before I pass judgment.

The trick for the six-dread army is to make them all vennies and give them all extra armour. If one of them gets destroyed, reroll the die. If they get stunned, they can try to move out of LOS for a turn to recover their bearing. It's not abusive, IMHO, but to quote Crispy, not "the sux."

@Crispy: Augustus has been saying he's had some good luck "templing" three of his dreads around a Techmarine. If one of them is stuck with an immobilized or weapon destroyed, it regenerates on a rerollable 2+. Not as good a use for a Techmarine as, say, two vindicators with power of the Machine Spirit, but definitely a fluffy and effective way of using them together. You should check out his list - it's pretty well thought-through. He plays five dreads so he can get a commander.

With dropped dreads, apparently the trick is hiding behind the pods when neccessary. Also probably best to leave the power fists on since you'll be much closer as opposed to the walking army.

edit - I'm not sure if a techmarine HQ would truly be worth it, except in 1000 points. You're going to have to take some troops, so you may as well take decent troops, which means you forfeit either leadership from the Commander or Assault punch from the Librarian or Chaplain. If you were also playing several Razorbacks on top of the Dreads, it could be worth it as half your firepower would not benefit from a Captain anyways and it would allow you to squeeze in Dread #6. Top it up with speeders and bam bang mechanized platoon.

ie: (without really thinking about it)

Wise: Scions of Mars, Heed the Wisdom of the Ancients, Eye to Eye

Techmarine ? Servo-Harness, +1 W, 4 Technical Servitors 155
Razorback ? TLHB 70

6x Venerable Dreadnought ? extra armour, missile launcher 140x6

6 Tactical Marines ? lascannon, plasma gun 115
Razorback ? TLHB 70

5 Tactical Marines ? lascannon, plasma gun 100
Razorback ? TLHB 70

Tornado Squadron ? assault cannon 80

(or dink the Tornado for TLLC on the Razorbacks and another marine against Necrons)

Posted By citadel97501 on 02/28/2006 7:39 PM
Actually a Las/HB Predator is not better because your mixing weapons and ranges. . .

Lets compare the basic builds


135 points for a dreadnaught to fire both a Twin linked Las-cannon, and a Missile Launcher
Range 48 for both weapons, with the same type of target being shot at. . .

165 points for a venerable dreadnaught with tank hunter to fire both a Twin linked Las-cannon, and a Missile Launcher Range 48 for both weapons, with the same type of target being shot at. A single "Siege" dreadnaught will destroy even a Monolith 23% of the time

Interesting points - now is this dread trying to shoot both the Str9 lascannon, AND the Str8 krak missle at the same time?

Isn't that a no-no?

Nope, walkers can fire up to 2 main weapons if they so desire. (BGB 63)

I am going to make myself either a 5 or 6 Dread Army of Iron Hands using a Techmarine as my commander and Terminators as Sarges in my Tac Squads. If I make a 5 dread list I will probably use a LR Crusader as my last Heavy Choice. I also have one Land Speeder Typhoon which I could use too.

BigChris, what are you implying?

I really wish GW would put up a new FAQ for Space Marines. I bet they would cover the 6 dread controversy. As a matter of fact, I will bet anyone that when they do update the FAQ, it will allow for 6 dreads in a Marine list with Heed the Wisdom. Wanna bet?

Darrian

burnthexenos' post again deleted for trolling.

heres a wrinkle for you

6 dreads any way you want to configure them no big deal chose your own favorite

scions trait techs as hq you still get 2 right ?book is at the store im at home

both techmarines full servo harness and yes this may cause some screaming.. but the codex says what it says quite clearly.. a techmarine may take any items from the space marine armory lats time i checked...

both with either a jump pack or a bike..replace the bolter for a plasma pistol add th 6 attacks on the charge all power weapons with 2 attacks at init 1 with power fists if you have an immobed dread thats where one tm can move to help

with you venerable dreads the ones with tank hunter you replace the storm bolter for a flamer then you get a str 5 flamer

troops.. scouts with sniper rifles and missle launchers you can either add 2 squads of assault marines which you can attach the tm if you wish or  speeders

 

i have run 4 dreads like this and was quite effective with it.. might actually try 6 now

not it isnt goon

http://us.games-workshop.com/errata/errata.htm

 

read foolish one its right there

I have read page 38 and it says no such thing.

Posted By citadel97501 on 02/28/2006 7:39 PM


160 pointsNow lets say for some odd reason you want to use predator the most efficient way, with both weapon systems the same. . . You would need to give it the Power of the Machine Spirit so it could fire at two different targets. . .

Since when does Power of the Machine Spirit allow a unit to fire at more than one target?

Ghaz: Oh, but his does... it's written in crayon.

spyrer: Take a gander at the upgrade entry, and it tells you.

Power of the Machine Spirit doesn't allow you to split fire. The old LR Machine Spirit did.
Same with shooting while moving over 6"- the only restriction on the original LR Machine Spirit was that you could fire an extra weapon if you were able to fire one, so people were able to fire the hurricane bolters on the crusader and an extra gun with the MS. But that went away with the codex.

Posted By lord_sutekh on 08/27/2006 9:18 PM

Ghaz: Oh, but his does... it's written in crayon.

I had no idea that trolls knew how to write.

D'oh... never used the dang thing, so I got the wires crossed.

Actually, its written in pen. It is the RAW (written by myself).