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Posted By Honkey Bro on 02/28/2006 12:32 PM

yakface's crappy drawing

I believe that is it's official name

It is his official name, I wanted to be clear

This post is only to try and force this thread into three pages so Honkey Bro will have to make good on his threat.

So it has some relivence, I can see the arguement on both sides. I personally perfer the magic cylinder theory only because it makes the game go faster and gives the game as a whole a more flowing feel. Not one of a bunch of actions taking place in a single frozen frame.

So it has some relivence, I can see the arguement on both sides. I personally perfer the magic cylinder theory only because it makes the game go faster and gives the game as a whole a more flowing feel. Not one of a bunch of actions taking place in a single frozen frame.

I'm with you, Jayden. While we know that "you can use modelling to your advantage," I'd just as soon not have to deal with it. A standing Carnifex, a leaping Carnifex, and a sleeping Carnifex, from the game's perspective, really ought to be the same.

And as for shooting between the Carnifex's legs, that's probably a pretty chancy thing. I mean, what if the Carnifex is, um, "interested" at the time you're taking your shot? The available space for firing is likely to be less than on a cold day on Valhalla - do we need minis that reflect the different, er, "size" of models in different climate conditions? Do we WANT to encourage such things?!?

I'm surprised this question didn't make it into the FAQ thread.

Oh, believe me. . .this question is included on the FAQ.

Any "issue" I've taken the time to make a "crappy diagram" (tm) for is certainly going to be included on any FAQ I compile.

"crappy drawing", not diagram.

yakface's crappy drawing is also a misrepresentation of the LOS rules since it does go on to explain that the model is not exactly where it is modeled, it could be anywhere on the base.

...and then tells you to draw a LOS using a model's eye view to the target's body. NOT the 'volume of space inhabited by the model'...

I don't want to, but I have to. I swore I would always throw my hat into the ring when magic cylinder came up so I must do it again.

If I draw a 1 meter diameter circle on the ground and stand in the center of it I occupy that space.
Imagine a cylinder that is the area of the circle up to my height (3' 2")

Even though I'm standing in the center of the circle the object only needs to reach the edge of the circle to hit me.

If you draw another circle that touches mine and stand in the center of it we will be involved in combat even if our arms cannot reach each other where we stand and those around us will not be able to see through the combined area of our circles up to a height of 6'.

You cannot stand next to me in the same circle. If my circle touches a wall you cannot move past me while I stand aside. The only way you can move past me is if the edge of my circle is over 1 meter away from the wall.

Even though, you and I are not standing at the edge of our circles all distances between us will be from circle edge to circle edge. So, we may be able to lean over and hold hands, but we will actually not be touching at all because the edges of our circles are not in contact with each other.

I think I've covered it all, but I'm sure if I haven't you can fill in the blanks yourself. These are all real world translations of what the rules tell us. Take from it what you will but, please stop the "I occupy the room I'm in" arguments. If I fire into the room will I hit you? Maybe. If I know you're occupying an area I will certainly put a few rounds in there regardless of where exactly you are standing in there. Any "real world" arguments should really be reserved for the magic cylinder players.

Unfortunatly I'm not really sure which side your on Glaive Co. It was a nice example but I'm not sure what its trying to prove.

Anyway, I think its stupid that the game is supposed to be extrapalated motion during the movement and assault phases, but is freeze frame in the shooting phase. I just find the idea stupid that all SM commanders choose at the exact moment the enemy is shooting at them to hold their fists/swords/pointy sticks high in the air and not move a muscle.

Anyway, not really helping much other than to get this to page three so Honkey Bro can go to town.

Anyway, I think its stupid that the game is supposed to be extrapalated motion during the movement and assault phases, but is freeze frame in the shooting phase.

It works that way because that's the only way that really works. You can't draw a reliable LOS to empty space above the model's base, and taking the physical LOS that you can actually see involves the players far more than some abstract 'you can or can not see it because it's a size 3 model'...

For anyone who can argue that you shouldn't be able to see between the Carnifex's legs because they are supposedly in motion, their opponent can just as easily argue that they should be able to see through, for exactly the same reason...

Treating the shooting phase as a 'snapshot' and using a true LOS removes any argument over what can and can't be seen. If you can see it, you can shoot it. It doesn't get any simpler than that.

I, too, anxiously await the coming of Honkey Bro.

For anyone who can argue that you shouldn't be able to see between the Carnifex's legs because they are supposedly in motion, their opponent can just as easily argue that they should be able to see through, for exactly the same reason...

My major objection is that it is an asinine approach to the problem. It'd be stupidly simple to legitimize the base of the model (now a semi-official size) as defining the area you can't shoot through. Instead, we're left with "You can use modeling to your advantage, you can use modeling to your advantage, you can use modeling to your advantage," where your Carnifex needs to wear a skirt, to prevent sniping UNDER it at the tyranid warrior behind him. Or, just make sure you turn him modestly sidewise after movement - no need to face the enemy with a non-vehicle, after all.

Treating the shooting phase as a 'snapshot' and using a true LOS removes any argument over what can and can't be seen. If you can see it, you can shoot it. It doesn't get any simpler than that.

Not really. If you feel that the game needs this sort of exact LOS drawing then your already pulling out the laser pointers. How hard would it be to take a peek down from the top to see if the beem crosses over the edge of a base. Its just as easy.

Not saying which is right, just that easy of operation is rarely a consideration in the GW rule set.

Anyway... I can feel the shadow of Honkey Bro passing over head. The time has come, this thread is to be devoured by the unstoppable might of Honkey Bro. He comes to feed, there will be no stopping him.

Posted By Janthkin on 02/28/2006 5:20 PM
It'd be stupidly simple to legitimize the base of the model (now a semi-official size) as defining the area you can't shoot through.

It would?

So you're saying that a dreadnought behind a wall like this:



...should block LOS through the holes in the wall? And that an opponent should be able to shoot at the dreadnought so positioned? And that makes more sense than just being able to shoot what you can see...? And then of course there's the absurdity that a Carnifex or Dreadnought could suddenly block a larger area of LOS purely by being placed on a larger base...

If you can find a wall with holes just like that then in the 1 in 1000 games that this would come up with then yes the dreadnaught can be shot (if using the magic cylinder theory) because its one of those situations that pops up in 1 in every 1000 games.

As for larger bases, well GW, if they had half a brain would give standard foot prints for all models that do not have standard basing sizes. That too would solve a lof the the modeling for advantage issues.

If you can find a wall with holes just like that then in the 1 in 1000 games that this would come up with then yes the dreadnaught can be shot (if using the magic cylinder theory) because its one of those situations that pops up in 1 in every 1000 games.

It doesn't have to be just like that... I merely illustrated an extreme example. A single hole would have the same effect, and would pop up far more often than 1 in a thousand.


But I guess we just have different ideas of what consitutes 'simple'... in a choice between shooting what I can see, or shooting at an empty patch of air because it happens to be located some particular distance above a base, I know which one I'm going to pick.

I like your picture, Insaniak. But the likelihood of that coming to pass is, as Jayden notes, rather small. MUCH smaller than that of having a unit standing behind that Dreadmought and visible only through his legs.

And GW went part of the way to solving your last point, by establishing minimum legal size bases. Going the one further step to maximum legal base sizes wouldn't be all that hard - Fantasy has been that way for a while now.

But I guess we just have different ideas of what consitutes 'simple'... in a choice between shooting what I can see, or shooting at an empty patch of air because it happens to be located some particular distance above a base, I know which one I'm going to pick.

False choice you're presenting there. I can play with words, too - I don't find it satisfying/compelling that an infantryman would calmly line a shot up BETWEEN the treads and UNDERNEATH the hull of an approaching battle tank, because he can see the boot of an advancing enemy.

An ideal world would allow for both - only shoot at vehicles whose hull you can see, no shooting past their base. (Missing third element to prevent horrible abuse: base size = size of the model.) But we're off-topic, and Honkey Bro is nigh.

I don't find it satisfying/compelling that an infantryman would calmly line a shot up BETWEEN the treads and UNDERNEATH the hull of an approaching battle tank, because he can see the boot of an advancing enemy.

Luckilly, that isn't allowed by the current LOS rules anyway, so that's all right then...

Honkey Bro, where are you?
Page three and the fight still rages!

oohhh ... crappy diagrams!~!!!!

more crappy diagrams , more crappy diagrams PLZ!!!!!!!!

I just wanted to pipe in during this short time i had to post and state i really didn't understand the "magic cylinder" bit but now i do, and i unwittingly subscribed to this philosophy as i hadn't fully considered the ramifications of "occupies the area of its base". That this topic has caused such a stir was not my intent; i really thought it was a foregone conclusion, but that was my assumtion, not a fact.

And Ghaz, i am not refuting soley with no, but this argument cannot proceed if we can't even agree on plain english. occupies = occupies, there is NO other interperetation to consider, no matter what your sensibilities may say. That is what RAW is all about after all.
You may not like the results, but it says what it says.

Posted By raughey on 03/01/2006 8:29 AM
more crappy diagrams , more crappy diagrams PLZ!!!!!!!!

Well, since you requested it, and since Iorek is resisting the temptation to post it, here ya go....

Again, the word 'occupy' and 'completely fill' are not synonyms. One does not mean the same as the other. We've given you countless examples of how something can 'occupy' an area and yet does not 'completely fill' that area.

Honkey Bro and I were unfortunately busy all day yesterday. Stupid work! But, for those of you wondering we are magic cylinder players. We believe that you CANNOT cheat through modelling. In other words, you can give your monsterous creature a 12" diameter base and enjoy all of the benefits that provides (large CC area, increased range when firing, etc.). But, it also comes with some disadvantages as well. The creature will probably never move without taking difficult terrain tests, he will probably never be able to hide from fire, and ordnance shots fired at him will be guaranteed hits everytime. But the main rule of thumb we use is that if it can't be shot at, it doesn't block LOS. The banner on a dreadnought's back, the battlecannon on a russ, and the flailing arms of a demon are examples of this.

The entire thing came up eons ago when Centurian99 and I had a conversation (on these forums long before the last meltdown) about how I use my sentinels as cover for my tanks. He questioned the tactic since the opponents could simply fire between the legs of the walker and the cab of the vehicle doesn't cover enough area of the tank to provide an 'obsured' situation. I had always taken it for granted that opponent's couldn't fire between the legs, and Centurian99 had always had the exact opposite thoughts on the subject. I'm pretty sure we both agreed that it can be played effectively either way! As long as the opponents know beforehand they can adjust their tactics accordingly. It's not that big of a deal.

Honkey Bro usually comes dragging in here late and hung over so I guess I'll have to try to fill the void until then... Okay, here we go. Something, wierd. Ummm... Oh! Okay! I got it! Do you guys sometimes ever wonder how they get the ketchup into the packs that you get from Burger King? I'm looking at one right know and it just looks like two pieces of foil stamped together with adhesive around the edges. I mean, how's a guy supposed to fill a container like that? And the real question that blows my mind is, "Does the ketchup occupy the packet even though it does not completely fill the available volume of the packet?" An even better question is, "Will Honkey Bro notice that I've put three of them on his chair before he sits down?"

He's still not here yet. Wait! that might be... no, nevermind. I had to eat the ketchup packets that I put on his chair. Hehe, remember on page 1 when Yak posted that picture of the guy with the target above his head. Oh man! That was funny! That's a great picture. I'm always impressed when I get to see how other countries militaries work. You see, the great thing about this is that it is equally dangerous either way you do it. The round will either hit the guy (we'll call him Crandel from now on) or it will successfully hit the paper target, travel through it, travel through the balsa wood fence behind it, and travel safely through the downtown business area that they are obviosly in. I can't tell but I think this picture was taken in Canada. Man, I bet Crandel never thought he'd be doing that when he signed up for the Canadian army! I think that whoever has to hold the targets during the day gets first pick of back bacon the morning after. So Crandel probably doesn't mind being hit with 3 rifle rounds a week on average to get to enjoy some mouth watering pig!

I'm hungry.

Sounds more like the French army than the Canadian one. Unless it's the French Canadian Army?

It was a dark and stormy night. Lightning flashed petulantly in the midnight sky, like a rebellious youth, illuminating the dazed expression on HonkeyBro's countenance as he stumbled wearily into the living room. "I simply must retire my aching posterior to this fine hardwood chair with plush backing", he uttered with accidental eloquence. No trace of irony could be detected in his wavering voice. If only he knew the fate that awaited him. Awaited him in darkness and in silence. His tragic end had been dispassionately calculated in aeons past by forces beyond his muddled comprehension, and titanic engines set in motion before the foundations of the earth could finally grind to a halt, the dedicated task of this mortal's destruction now complete. As HonkeyBro set himself at ease in the chair, he rubbed his head with one tired hand and fumbled for the light on his davenport with the other. He froze. His consciousness was stirred and for a moment arose from amidst the sea of limbic impulses to take note of the unusual sensations beneath him. "What the devil...!" He leapt up and looked down upon the seat of his beloved chair, which was of course a useless gesture since he was unable to make out anything beyond an arm's length. Then, in the turmoil outside, the air waws set on fire as ten trillion electrons exchanged places. In the split second before the deafening thunderclap HonkeyBro's desperate eyes were granted the sight of three ketchup packets, their seams split and contents emptied. The afterimage seared his retinas, and then all was darkness...

It was a dark and stormy night. Lightning flashed petulantly in the midnight sky, like a rebellious youth, illuminating the dazed expression on HonkeyBro's countenance as he stumbled wearily into the living room. "I simply must retire my aching posterior to this fine hardwood chair with plush backing", he uttered with accidental eloquence. No trace of irony could be detected in his wavering voice. If only he knew the fate that awaited him. Awaited him in darkness and in silence. His tragic end had been dispassionately calculated in aeons past by forces beyond his muddled comprehension, and titanic engines set in motion before the foundations of the earth could finally grind to a halt, the dedicated task of this mortal's destruction now complete. As HonkeyBro set himself at ease in the chair, he rubbed his head with one tired hand and fumbled for the light on his davenport with the other. He froze. His consciousness was stirred and for a moment arose from amidst the sea of limbic impulses to take note of the unusual sensations beneath him. "What the devil...!" He leapt up and looked down upon the seat of his beloved chair, which was of course a useless gesture since he was unable to make out anything beyond an arm's length. Then, in the turmoil outside, ten trillion electrons exchanged places, the air was set on fire. In the split second before the deafening thunderclap HonkeyBro's desperate eyes were granted the sight of three ketchup packets, their seams split and contents emptied. The afterimage seared his retinas, and then all was darkness...

OH MY GOD!!!

You people sicken me.