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I have no problem with complaining about weapons that are actually overpowered. See: UMP from MW2. Basically a range-ignoring 3-hit kill weapon with the power of an assault rifle and the speed/mobility of an SMG. Vastly out-DPS'd the other SMG's and outmoded some of the Assault Rifles.
What I see people complaining about mostly is situations or things that require you to change your strategies to defeat. Sniper in TF2, for example, is the least liked class in the entire game, because in a game designed for close-range combat getting 1-shotted from far away isn't fun. As rage-inducing as it is to get sniped with virtually all the classes having little in the way of mitigating it, the class isn't overpowered at all. Lowest health in the game and zero close-range ability make that true.

So people somehow interpret 'what isn't fun to get killed by' as 'what isn't balanced'.

The explosive spam in MW2 was almost unbearable. In order to get to and successfully engage an OMA grenade spammer, you had to get in between that sweet spot of 'exploding death at any range' and 'broken knife distance'. There was literally about 3-5 feet between when the grenades exploded on impact and when they could knife you before you could react. Virtually impossible most of the time, so, coupled with the ability to get multikill after multikill, there were people constantly dominating servers and remaining virtually untouched.

Then we go back to the Sniper in TF2. While getting sniped, especially as a Scout, is fething annoying and makes me want to rip my keyboard apart and eat every single key one after another, the class is balanced by the fact that if I get in close to him, he's dead. People aren't able to compensate for this, so they make some sort of excuse mitigating 'skill' with getting kills. That's why we have glorious idiots yelling at you for scoping in more than 2 seconds, or for people in TF2 becoming angry at dying from a shot to the body, rather than a shot to the head. Apparently people have some masochism in that they can't accept their fault by being killed unless it's from some 720* triple overhead falcon noscope flip.
In this way, Sniper is balanced. Much of the reason people hate Snipers in games is simply because of the ability of quickscoping, that they can through timing kill an enemy at close range with their long range weapon. Believe me, it's not that hard.
While it is horribly annoying, when was the last time you ever saw this 'annoying but balanced' X stomp through people as much as a 'blatantly overpowered' Y?

The whole issue with LoL over flash.

Its a get out of Fail free card.


Using it to attack, people dont care, or to reposition.

The issue is it has become a.. oh gak i wasn't paying attention i can just flash over the wall and lolol i get away without being punished for playing dumb.

DOTA2 is going to be balanced.. wow.. yea... so when you have a nub that feeds their super carry they will then solo your entire team.

The free to play model is good.. as if they do not charge a monthly fee.. the game would be dead.. as buy the game once.. no more income = no motivation to keep updating after the first year or two after its sold.

DOTA2 will have the same issue as LoL, if not more issue that DOTA had as the game has not changed much.


btw.. whats the point of this thread ?

its the internet.. people will complain no matter what..

Even if it was my Little pony somone would find a reason to complain that the purple pony was better then the Green pony so they need to tone its color down...

When I win it's skill. When you win it's haxox!!!.

Cube 2: Sauerbraten is probably the most balanced first person shooter I have ever played.

Melissia wrote:I'm more annoyed at people who whine about shotguns in most modern-warfare style fps games (especialy combat arms, but not exclusively) because they kill people quickly at point blank range... you know, exactly what they're supposed to do?

If these idiots had their way shotguns would be useless....

Couldn't agree more!
I quit Metal Gear Online for good after being kicked 5 times in a row for using shotgun and flamed to death by everybody

If anything shotguns are underpowered, in reality shotguns are effective at considerably further range than their FPS counterparts.

corpsesarefun wrote:If anything shotguns are underpowered, in reality shotguns are effective at considerably further range than their FPS counterparts.

Reality can often be only given the vaguest of nods in the name of balance, to be fair. Though this did lead to me thinking Shotguns had an effective range of 10 feet when I was younger.

Also, online gaming is the reason the mute button is like a brother to me.

Slarg232 wrote:
Point this out to the League of Legends community, and it's "FLASH IS BALANCED, NUB, L2P" All the while they cry that "Hit and Runner X is underpowered!" or hell, even heard "Brush is Overpowered!" Their excuse for Flash being balanced is, wait for it; Everyone can use it and start doing better. So the guy who is already a Hit and Runner can use it, even though he doesn't get anything out of it, because he already has that ability.

That's because flash is balanced, if you think using it will necessarily make you play better, beyond simply having an extra escape, then you're doing something wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spyder68 wrote:The whole issue with LoL over flash.

Its a get out of Fail free card.


Using it to attack, people dont care, or to reposition.

The issue is it has become a.. oh gak i wasn't paying attention i can just flash over the wall and lolol i get away without being punished for playing dumb.

It also allows you to play more aggressively, which isn't necessarily playing dumb.

You're acting like Flash isn't a part of the game which all players should be aware of.

dogma wrote:

Slarg232 wrote:
Point this out to the League of Legends community, and it's "FLASH IS BALANCED, NUB, L2P" All the while they cry that "Hit and Runner X is underpowered!" or hell, even heard "Brush is Overpowered!" Their excuse for Flash being balanced is, wait for it; Everyone can use it and start doing better. So the guy who is already a Hit and Runner can use it, even though he doesn't get anything out of it, because he already has that ability.

That's because flash is balanced, if you think using it will necessarily make you play better, beyond simply having an extra escape, then you're doing something wrong.

So being able to successfully jump someone, get them down to ~20 health at level 1, only for them to Flash away, is perfectly balanced? It's a crutch poor players use to cover up their mistakes.

Also, you know something is wrong if you play a game of LoL, 8/10 people have Flash. Play another game, and it's 9/10. Play another, and 7/10. After that, 9/10 again. It is just too useful and/or too powerful compared to the other options if EVERYONE uses it.

How do you balance a character around being able to hit and run (Kassadin, who has piss poor health, or Ezriel, who also has piss poor health) against someone like Mordekaiser (Who is capable of smacking someone for 600 damage every ~3 seconds, built TANK, not DPS), and then give Mordekaiser the ability to keep up in a race against them? You just can't, and that's why you see everyone saying Mordekaiser is overpowered; just by taking Flash, you eliminate his problem of no CC and no escape tools.

Slarg232 wrote:
So being able to successfully jump someone, get them down to ~20 health at level 1, only for them to Flash away, is perfectly balanced? It's a crutch poor players use to cover up their mistakes.

That excuse works both ways, see: poor players use Flash as an excuse for a poorly executed ganks. Poor players also assume that individual ganking is all about getting kills.

Slarg232 wrote:
Also, you know something is wrong if you play a game of LoL, 8/10 people have Flash. Play another game, and it's 9/10. Play another, and 7/10. After that, 9/10 again. It is just too useful and/or too powerful compared to the other options if EVERYONE uses it.

That, or the other options are essentially useless. There are maybe 5 summoner spells that are commonly useful outside fixed team: Flash, Teleport, Ignite, Ghost, and Heal if you're low level. And even then, the first 4 are the most often used spells in fixed team because the others require specific strategies to get any use from.

Flash is really good because, no matter what everyone else on your team is doing, you will individually be able to benefit from it.

Slarg232 wrote:
How do you balance a character around being able to hit and run (Kassadin, who has piss poor health, or Ezriel, who also has piss poor health) against someone like Mordekaiser (Who is capable of smacking someone for 600 damage every ~3 seconds, built TANK, not DPS), and then give Mordekaiser the ability to keep up in a race against them? You just can't, and that's why you see everyone saying Mordekaiser is overpowered; just by taking Flash, you eliminate his problem of no CC and no escape tools.

If you're letting Mordekaiser catch Kassadin with Flash, then you don't know how to play Kassadin. Hell, if you're entering melee, alone, with Kassadin against Mordekaiser, then you don't know how to play Kassadin. This applies doubly after Kass gets his ult.

Ezreal is even easier to poke with. Flash has a range of 425, a little higher if you're using it to wall jump because of the way clipping works, there is no reason, at all, that Ezreal should ever be within Flash range of Mord as the shortest range any of his spells has is 750. Hell, arcane shift beats Flash by 50 range, and doesn't have a 4 minute cooldown.

The problem isn't that Flash is overpowered, its that champs like Mord are really easy to use, and champs like Ezreal and Kass are not.

The other option being if they run a support role, literally the choices get narrowed down to Flash, Clairvoyance, Ghost and perhaps exhaust. CV is generally always taken, if you understand the jungle routes well and the enemy jungler actually follows the right path, you will basically always know where they are. The reason it is left to the support is the other abilities are much more useful on the rest of the team; shouldn't need to wait for the support to catch up and throw down an exhaust for example.

The reason for them to take flash is because basically none of the supports have an escape mechanism, it adds it and allows the support to be more durable. Really flash is more of an extension to the characters than a flash. If everyone has it, it no longer seems so broken as if they jump a wall to run you can jump it to chase. It's not a get out of fail free card as it doesn't work if silenced, stunned or snared; it is just a slight addition to the already existing mobility of the champion. A proper gank will take this into account and still punish them for being out of position.

Summoner Spells, Runes, and Masteries all imbalance League of Legends. There are simply too many factors for Riot to balance around, factors that they cannot handle.

Flash is a crutch, and it shouldn't be in the game. Its basically a Blink Dagger from DotA, but everyone can take it for no cost at all.

The reason its included with the game coincides with the entire idea of LoL - make the game easier to play for idiots. Its as simple as that. Its a crutch for bad players, but also makes good players almost ungankable.

If you watch any of the tournament LoL matches, usually there is about 2-3 kills in 15-20 minutes...the gameplay is about as passive as it gets. Flash plays a huge part in that.

LoL is balanced around low-level players, around the majority of the people who play the game so that they will buy Riot Points and provide revenue for the company.

If Riot really wanted to LoL to be a competitive, balanced game, they would remove summoner spells altogether, and actually focus on bringing older champions into relevance.

And, after two years, they need a Pause, Replay, and Spectator function. These are three basic things that I cannot fathom why they are not in the game yet.

dogma wrote:

Slarg232 wrote:
Point this out to the League of Legends community, and it's "FLASH IS BALANCED, NUB, L2P" All the while they cry that "Hit and Runner X is underpowered!" or hell, even heard "Brush is Overpowered!" Their excuse for Flash being balanced is, wait for it; Everyone can use it and start doing better. So the guy who is already a Hit and Runner can use it, even though he doesn't get anything out of it, because he already has that ability.

That's because flash is balanced, if you think using it will necessarily make you play better, beyond simply having an extra escape, then you're doing something wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spyder68 wrote:The whole issue with LoL over flash.

Its a get out of Fail free card.


Using it to attack, people dont care, or to reposition.

The issue is it has become a.. oh gak i wasn't paying attention i can just flash over the wall and lolol i get away without being punished for playing dumb.

It also allows you to play more aggressively, which isn't necessarily playing dumb.

You're acting like Flash isn't a part of the game which all players should be aware of.

There is nothing better then using it for offense. Annie + Flash + Tibberstun = win

Its just most of the time.. its used to escape fail, not for offense.

There is just so much of a handicap with this spell..

Oh i wasn't watching now im getting ganked.. oh well, flash and im ok.

I just over extended and didnt pay attention to their jungler... a good flash and your safe from not paying attention / using wards.

mega_bassist wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:A lot of it is heat of the moment rage. I do it on Halo and Black Ops, but I don't really mean it at all.
However, there are some games and weapons that have balance issues. Ghost, the Famas and the AK47u in Black Ops are overpowered and are used A LOT compared to other weapons and classes. Armour Lock and the DMR on Halo are both quite bad. Armour Lock is used by almost everyone I meet on Team Slayer, whilst the DMR is too powerful compared to the Assault Rifle.

Ghost is better than Cold-Blooded in MW2 - Choppers still see you with Ghost on...I think the FAMAS is fair, as it does low damage and has a high rate of fire. I'll agree, the AKS-74U is totally OP, but IRL it is an assault rifle. It uses the 5.45x39 round...the "low" rate of fire and recoil are supposed to counter the power, but it's still a beast...I actually run Ghost w/ a silenced AKS-74U pretty often. Total

Ghost is overpowered due the absence of Stopping Power. With it, everyone used the latter, and maybe had one or two Cold Blooded classes that were very situational. Ghost gives no such disadvantages, so you're free to run around invisible to a Spyplane which is almost essential. It promotes camping, which I despise unless there's a very good reason to be sitting in the same place for most of the game.
The Famas does not have low damage. It has a high rate of fire and high damage, with little recoil.

iproxtaco wrote: It promotes camping, which I despise unless there's a very good reason to be sitting in the same place for most of the game.
The Famas does not have low damage. It has a high rate of fire and high damage, with little recoil.

Famas is low damage compared to some other guns. But differences between the various guns in CoD (since CoD4) are so miniscule that it really doesn't matter.

iproxtaco wrote:

Ghost is overpowered due the absence of Stopping Power. With it, everyone used the latter, and maybe had one or two Cold Blooded classes that were very situational. Ghost gives no such disadvantages, so you're free to run around invisible to a Spyplane which is almost essential. It promotes camping, which I despise unless there's a very good reason to be sitting in the same place for most of the game.
The Famas does not have low damage. It has a high rate of fire and high damage, with little recoil.

I wouldnt say Ghost is OP as the basic form just hides you from Spyplanes, everything else can still get you. Its only once it becomes Ghost Pro i can be seen as Op imo. Yes nothing can shoot you unless its player controlled or is attack dogs. A usual class I run in Black Ops is usuall Famas with Silencer or Dual Mags, Strela-3, Ghost Pro, Slight of Hand Pro and Hacker Pro. Is it because I stay hidden like a camper?? No its not. If anything I am running around trying to flank the other team, it usually works well. Ghost helps me to take the other team by surprise.

As for saying:

everyone used the latter

You may want to change it to "the majority used the latter", as never have I seen Stopping Power being more useful than Cold-Blooded. I like to survive and not get my ass handed by Harriers and what not. Granted it takes say 3-5 more bullets to kill somebody my kill to death ratio has remained pretty decent because of Cold-Blooded.

Hm. In All Points Bulletin: Reloaded, a certain weapon (the Whisper) is overpowered-- a high power, rapid fire, silenced assault rifle which is fairly accurate. It's hard to obtain normally (very high end weapon, requires you to get finish the rifleman achievement tree entirely IIRC, but I could be wrong there-- it might be store-bought only), but anyone with enough money basically rent it for five bucks a month from the store without paying any in-game money for it. It's much-reviled within the game as a "pay2win" weapon.

Rocket Launchers are also quite powerful (usually one hit kills even on indirect hits unless you have kevlar), but they aren't as universally loathed as the Whisper is because they slow down your movement, have a very slow rate of fire, expensive ammunition, etc. More of an "oh gak they have a rocket launcher, let's try to deal with him first!" thing, as opposed to the WHisper, which is an "oh goddamnit, gakfething pay2-win premium players!" thing.

That game hasn't burned out yet?

dogma wrote:
That, or the other options are essentially useless. There are maybe 5 summoner spells that are commonly useful outside fixed team: Flash, Teleport, Ignite, Ghost, and Heal if you're low level. And even then, the first 4 are the most often used spells in fixed team because the others require specific strategies to get any use from.

Then the problem is still that Flash is too powerful compared to every other spell. Though you do raise a good point; do "we" buff all the other spells, or do "we" Debuff flash?

>They play Halo
>They play LoL
>They don't realize that they could be playing GOOD games like Minecraft or Stone Soup

Seriously you guys, you're missing out.

What? On pixelated wastes of time without even the purpose of winning?

No thank you

Seeing this thread again reminded me of the other day when I was playing a Warfront (PvP) scenario in Rift. Simple scenario where you generate points by holding the flag (person holding it takes damage that increases over time for holding it) and the first to a set limit wins. It starts in the middle of the map and that map looks like this.



Well our side got the flag and followed the path back up closer to the starting area and the other team just flipped out screaming bloody murder about how we were cheating and that it was cheap and that we were breaking the game. As you can see from the map these pathways are clearly shown and not some quirk of the map. I isn't like we found some clipping and hid in the wall, yet would have thought we had done just that. I haven't seen that much complaining in a game in a long time just because one was losing, it was kind of sad. If a team is able to get the flag back to a defended position it takes a concerted effort to gt it back, which isn't that hard, but requires team work, and with only 1 or 2 coming in at a time, you'll never achieve it.

Soladrin wrote:What? On pixelated wastes of time without even the purpose of winning?

No thank you

Aren't all video games a waste of time?

I guess this is the world we live in now, where kids are taught that winning is everything and anything must be competitive. Sad, really. Life isn't a race, nor is it a competition. Why should the things we are supposed to enjoy be any different?

nectarprime wrote:Aren't all video games a waste of time?

There are educational and training games, if you mean to imply that anything that doesn't have immediate utility is a waste of time.

I think the problem may be more in how you framed your argument, in that you insulted people then your two examples of good games are semi-obscure (and redundant) games that are extremely niche in their appeal and have antiquated graphics. You could have also just said "Halo? That's just so mainstream. I just play Jason Rohrer games. You wouldn't understand, their just to deep for you".

Karon wrote:

Cheesecat wrote:League of legends is a perfectly balanced game, except when a new hero is released they need a bit of time before they get nerfed.

I laughed.

That's why only about 20 heroes, out of 81-82 heroes, are picked, right?

That's why some heroes are nerfed to the ground and then never touched again, right? (Sup Shaco, Eve, Garen, Twitch, etc)

League of Legends is terribly balanced. Riot balances towards low-level players (Eve nerf..) so that people who get stomped by high-level player's smurfs, that they don't quit and give them more money.

League of Legends, who's team compositions are commonly 1 faceroll support such as Sona or Soraka, and then 4 tanky DPS such as Warwick, Jarvan, Alistar, Cho'Gath, Amumu, Gangplank, Irelia, Lee-Sin.

Masteries, Runes, Summoner Spells all make the game unbalanced, Flash and Exhaust being the biggest offenders. They make certain champions just useless entirely, and forgive any mistake you may make. Nobody wants to buy runes with IP instead of champions, so you always get matched with people who don't have any runes, and feed early game because of it.

LoL balances towards terrible players so they can make the maximum amount of money, because the F2P model attracts all the morons who don't know their ear from their donkey-cave.

If you want a balanced Action-RTS, say hello to Dota, or, soon to be, Dota2.

You are so far off here. Shaco, garen and twitch are all very playable characters. There are a handful of champs that are actually considered all around bad. Eve is one of them. However, nearly all of the champions can compose a very solid and competitive team.

Your third line about team composition is innaccurate as well. The best teams consist of a very diverse selection of champions ranging from tanks, supports, ranged physical and magical carries, junglers etc etc. This diversity give you many many options for team composition.

For AD carries, you could pick Miss Fortune, Caitlyn, ashe, Trynd, Garen, wukong, jarvan, corki, hell I dont even remember them all because there are so many viable choices.

Also - Riot does not balance towards bad players, they balance much more towards high end competition which is basically the exact opposite. Many of the champions that are balanced in competitive play are terrible in normal, low level games, simply because people do not have the skills and experience to utilize them properly.

Also - The players that play the game the longest are the ones who are more likely to spend the most money, since spending actual money does not get you any performance increases, just aesthetic upgrades, which new players do not generally care about.

Really, your entire argument is false. I sort of wonder if you have even put any time into playing LoL at all...

In response to the OP about flash, yes everyone uses it because it is the most universally useful summoner spell aside from exhaust and ignite. However, characters who already have a flash like ability, such as shaco and ezreal, are not somehow worse simply because other characters have access to flash since flash effectively cancels itself out. Compare the cooldown on flash to the cooldown on ezreal's teleport. Ezreal can teleport many times in a team fight, whereas flash can only be used once due to it's long cooldown. It is unfortunate that the other summoner spells arent used more often (like rally, revive, heal, etc.) but this does not mean that flash is unbalanced.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slarg232 wrote:

dogma wrote:

Slarg232 wrote:
Point this out to the League of Legends community, and it's "FLASH IS BALANCED, NUB, L2P" All the while they cry that "Hit and Runner X is underpowered!" or hell, even heard "Brush is Overpowered!" Their excuse for Flash being balanced is, wait for it; Everyone can use it and start doing better. So the guy who is already a Hit and Runner can use it, even though he doesn't get anything out of it, because he already has that ability.

That's because flash is balanced, if you think using it will necessarily make you play better, beyond simply having an extra escape, then you're doing something wrong.

So being able to successfully jump someone, get them down to ~20 health at level 1, only for them to Flash away, is perfectly balanced? It's a crutch poor players use to cover up their mistakes.

Also, you know something is wrong if you play a game of LoL, 8/10 people have Flash. Play another game, and it's 9/10. Play another, and 7/10. After that, 9/10 again. It is just too useful and/or too powerful compared to the other options if EVERYONE uses it.

How do you balance a character around being able to hit and run (Kassadin, who has piss poor health, or Ezriel, who also has piss poor health) against someone like Mordekaiser (Who is capable of smacking someone for 600 damage every ~3 seconds, built TANK, not DPS), and then give Mordekaiser the ability to keep up in a race against them? You just can't, and that's why you see everyone saying Mordekaiser is overpowered; just by taking Flash, you eliminate his problem of no CC and no escape tools.

How can you say any champion has piss poor health when their health is generally based on their equipment? Also, how can Morde catch a kassadin or ezreal in a race when kass and ezreal both have teleports with a cooldown less than 6 seconds?... Also - Morde isnt overpowered, hes just tough to kill early game. ALSO - you assume that every player has a wall that they can flash over to safety at all times no matter where they are on the map, this is completely inaccurate.

Your examples suggest that you would ignore the summoner spells that someone has when playing against them, rather than adapt your strategy around the abilities that your opponent has.