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You can shoot at a vehicle if you can't see any of the facing side?

herodotus wrote:You can shoot at a vehicle if you can't see any of the facing side?

Yes. Suppose you're in the side arc of a vehicle and the LOS to that facing is completely blocked by intervening terrain. However, you can just barely see the front facing of the vehicle - you can fire at the front facing even though you are in the side arc, but you confer a 3+ cover save to the vehicle.

Saw this during a game the other day when 2 players at the LGS were discussing it. One had a Dev squad strung out in a line with Lascannons on the flanks. In front of them was an immobilized Rhino turned sideways and a mobile Rhino behind it facing forward and butted up against it. The Lascannons could see the side of the mobile Rhino and not able to gain LOS to the front. Player with the DEV squad wanted to shoot the mobile one. with his Lascannons

Just reminding y'all, if the terrain in question was agreed to give a 3+ cover save before the game started, the vehicle does indeed get a 3+ cover save as per the obscured rules.

Scott-S6 wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Generally, the 3+ cover situation only comes up if you are using lots of buildings.

Or if you shield a vehicle with another vehicle of the same type.

This can be more difficult than it seems, because if you can see the turret, you can see the "facing" (as facing is not defined as only the hull), and also because most vehicles do not have perfectly flat fronts or rears, most of the time allowing you to see the facing you're in.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Just reminding y'all, if the terrain in question was agreed to give a 3+ cover save before the game started, the vehicle does indeed get a 3+ cover save as per the obscured rules.

No it won't since infantry will gain a 3+ cover. A building can obscure a vehicle. An obscured vehicle is given a 4+ cover save. Now if they agreed beforehand that the building gives a 3+ cover to infantry and vehicles then yes it would, but that was not in the orignal question/poll/post.

willydstyle wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Generally, the 3+ cover situation only comes up if you are using lots of buildings.

Or if you shield a vehicle with another vehicle of the same type.

This can be more difficult than it seems, because if you can see the turret, you can see the "facing" (as facing is not defined as only the hull), and also because most vehicles do not have perfectly flat fronts or rears, most of the time allowing you to see the facing you're in.

That's really being pretty picky that the turret always counts. The easiest way to find out is to take your tape and take it corner to opposite corner. Using that as a guide see if you can see anything in the same facing as you, turret or not, guns I believe don't count so the extended barrel on a vanquisher wouldn't count either.

Akroma06 wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Just reminding y'all, if the terrain in question was agreed to give a 3+ cover save before the game started, the vehicle does indeed get a 3+ cover save as per the obscured rules.

No it won't since infantry will gain a 3+ cover. A building can obscure a vehicle. An obscured vehicle is given a 4+ cover save. Now if they agreed beforehand that the building gives a 3+ cover to infantry and vehicles then yes it would, but that was not in the orignal question/poll/post.

Wrong, only generic obscuring only gives a 4+ cover. if the vehicle is gaining obscured from terrain blocking LoS, it gains whatever cover save that particular terrain gives. if it is obscured by some bushes or hedges, it will get a 5+ cover. if its obscured by a fortified bunker he gets a 3+ cover.

regardless of the situation, if a firing unit is shooting at a vehicle arc that they are not in(because they can't see it) the vehicle gets a 3+ cover.

AKroma - you need to reread your rulebook, and note that vehicles get the same cover save that infantry would get. If infantry get a 3+ cover save, and if the vehicle is obscured, then the vehicle would get a 3+ cover save.

The GK bunker, with techmarine+libby with shrouding + 3 riflemens relies on this - you can get a 2+ cover save with the vehciles...

I'll reread it, but I'm not so sure. I don't want to turn this into a 5 page argument. The point was in the oringal post none of this was a concern. It was just a question of if the majority of the vehicle is hidden do you give a 3+ cover. So I took the majority of the situations...like 90% of them...and said no to the poll. In my first post I explained that I give a 3+ cover if the shooting squad can't see the face they are shooting at.

Reread it, and note that "4+" is simply the most common cover save vehicles can get, not the only one. There is no scope for argument: vehicles receive the same cover save from terrain as infantry do. Thats it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:AKroma - you need to reread your rulebook, and note that vehicles get the same cover save that infantry would get. If infantry get a 3+ cover save, and if the vehicle is obscured, then the vehicle would get a 3+ cover save.

The GK bunker, with techmarine+libby with shrouding + 3 riflemens relies on this - you can get a 2+ cover save with the vehciles...

Akroma06 wrote:I'll reread it, but I'm not so sure. I don't want to turn this into a 5 page argument. The point was in the oringal post none of this was a concern. It was just a question of if the majority of the vehicle is hidden do you give a 3+ cover. So I took the majority of the situations...like 90% of them...and said no to the poll. In my first post I explained that I give a 3+ cover if the shooting squad can't see the face they are shooting at.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Reread it, and note that "4+" is simply the most common cover save vehicles can get, not the only one. There is no scope for argument: vehicles receive the same cover save from terrain as infantry do. Thats it.

Seriously repetition is a little annoying. I said I would reread it and I will. That was my thought at the time and until I can find my BRB I'm not going to change my mind. Honestly the only reason I'm actually trying to find it now is that you have a good track record on these kinds of things. I fail to see how that has to do with the original question. He didn't say anything about the cover having a different value, just that it was mostly obscured.

I repeated it once - to point out that "I'm not so sure" is because youre used to 4+ cover saves.

Take it in the spirit its intended, which is to be helpful and explaining why you may think one way. Or, be uptight about it. Your choice

nosferatu1001 wrote:I repeated it once - to point out that "I'm not so sure" is because youre used to 4+ cover saves.

Take it in the spirit its intended, which is to be helpful and explaining why you may think one way. Or, be uptight about it. Your choice

Sorry I'm not trying to be uptight about it. I'm just not having the worlds best day.

Ah right, no worries. Its just the fun of a text only forum

All the best Rob

Thanks.
I just didn't want to come across as a TFG in a forum when it has nothing to do with dakka.

Akroma06 wrote:
That's really being pretty picky that the turret always counts. The easiest way to find out is to take your tape and take it corner to opposite corner. Using that as a guide see if you can see anything in the same facing as you, turret or not, guns I believe don't count so the extended barrel on a vanquisher wouldn't count either.

Rulebook page 60, the very first line of "shooting at vehicles" says that when you're shooting at a vehicle, you have line of sight if you can see the hull or vehicle. You are correct that you can't target a gun barrel, but if you can see the turret, you can see the tank in the facing that you are in, therefor no 3+ cover save.