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Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch






Leenus wrote:Tzeentchling,

How will the bullstar never lose combat? Horde dark elf spears with mindrazor do the job very nicely. And that's not even a hard combo to pull off and one that you will likely see often at tournaments.

If we are counting spells too, the bulls have regen from the Lore of the Great Maw. DE kill about 5 ogres(16ish wounds after regen) and the Ogres murder about 22 of them for their trouble and run them since they are not steadfast.

Let's be careful with absolutes. The bullstar offers very limited survivability. If you spend the points to put defensive characters in the front rank, you're susceptible to all those lovely initiative based spells.

I thought we were discussing close combat.

   
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Chino Hills, CA

Isn't that a bit contradictory? You talk about counting spells, then point out Leenus' discussion on spells?

Is the Bullstar good? With enough characters, sure. Is it unbeatable? Hardly.

I'd also like to point out that when an opponent has 4 spells, it's easy to roll doubles and pick up Purple Sun. In addition, when you've thrown 6 dice at it, you're bound to get IF. Still, Grey Templar, your point stands, and even with these two factors in mind it's still pure chance.

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On Purple Sun -

While I agree there are a number of of variables, IF that spell goes off, it is largely game over. A good, reliable tournament army doesn't like a high probability of loss if a certain spell goes off.

On the "bullstar" -

It's stupid to argue these hypotheticals over and over, because we can keep adding things ad nauseum. However, The hypotheticals I bring up are largely seen in tournament lists. The chance that one of these fighty units has flaming banner or a character with flaming banner is very high. It costs DE spears 10 points. So now you lose 10 ogres. Ignoring that most decent lists bring flaming (to deal with regen grave guard), who in their right mind is NOT running stubborn crown? Especially, a dark elf that can get pendant. So, I'm not sure the DE are going to be running in your scenario (why would I charge in that situation WITHOUT stubborn? I don't know)

Moreover, it's harder to get regen off on those guys than it is to get off mindrazor (no limit on DE dice, dagger can add a die, can even use dagger to make more dice).

You also ignore that if you decided to stack that unit with characters, they just all likely died to the mindrazor attacks (and if not, they will next turn thanks to stubborn lord).

The point I am making is that your statement that it can "never" be beaten is absolutely ludicrous. Many tournament builds already have the tools to beat that death star.

Moreover, my statement about the initiative based spells was that EVEN if it could "never" be beaten, it would still be unwise to take, for the simple fact you're putting everything in an "I lose to purple sun" basket.


Nevertheless, I believe a beefy unit will work well and will be necessary given the fact you need to clump your LD together. But that doesn't mean a bullstar is going to be unbeatable or even REMOTELY close that we should be discussing it.

Team USA ETC Dark Elves 2010, 2011
 
   
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Aren't we all getting off point? So is it the general Consensus that OK will be much better than they used to? Or are we just saying that power armies like DE, DoC, and WoC are still too dayum powerful for anyone else to have a reliable chance at winning?
   
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They are way better than they used to be, but will struggle to reliably beat the top tier armies with uncompped builds.

They CAN win, but it would not be my top choice of tournament army. As levels of comp increase, their prospects get a lot better.

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Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

here are some stats on Mournfangs.


Mournfangs cost 30 Gnoblars each and can purchase Ironfists or Great Weapons, and HA.


Mournfangs with Ironfists will have a 2+ armor save at all times, and a 6+ parry in CC(Ironfist parry can be used even when mounted)


on the charge, a unit of 6(which is around 400 points) will inflict 3D3 Str5 impact hits(with around a 30% chance of doing an additional 3 for rolling a 10+ for the charge distance with swiftstride), 18 Str4 attacks(riders), 12 Str5 attacks(mounts), and then 3 Str5 Stomps

That gives a possability of anywhere between 36 and 45 attacks. between 6 and 15 of them are autohitting at Str5.


Anyone who fails their Fear test is just screwed.

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Mournfangs sound nasty, 6 for 400 points, in a 3k match, you could run 3 units and just tear apart your enemies flank, I see Mournfang spam being very nasty. I might just pick up 9 boxes, lol!
   
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After this im definitely bringing back out my bull horde with a mournfang horde, add a bsb, tyrant or slaughtermaster, firebelly and all i need is two flanking units for 2.5

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Leenus wrote:They are way better than they used to be, but will struggle to reliably beat the top tier armies with uncompped builds.

They CAN win, but it would not be my top choice of tournament army. As levels of comp increase, their prospects get a lot better.


This has always been true of ogres though, due to how expensive their core is. As points levels go up, ogres get better.

I'd say this new book is going to be a solid mid-tier book, which is good enough for me!

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Dallas, TX

Yes the core got cheaper, yes bull charge got better, yes the army dropped some restrictions, and if this was it Ogres would be a very good army...

However....

Lord cost went up
Magic items got overpriced/deleted
Gut Magic got it's casting values raised, with no more loremaster
Ogre club, Catharyn Long sword are very much gone
Mawseeker big name, quadruples in price

I don't get it. Ogres weren't bad before, and were actually pretty decent. So why change their book, when you still have all the "Top Tier books" largely un-affected? (I.E. if it's broken armies like Lizardmen ruining the game.... Then Nerf Lizardmen)

You don't reward someone that got out of a swimming pool full of sharks unharmed, by sticking a shive in his side and throwing him back in.

I really hope I'm wrong about the new book, and only time will tell.

.......just lost a game today with the new rules, so sorry about the ALL CAPS RAGE.......

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/09/01 04:19:26


 
   
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Texas

Well its GW, did you expect anything mind blowing amazing for the past several books? I still dont get why beastmen dont have marks of chaos and lost 1/2 of their old book due to WoC taking their monsters

Still I like the looks of this book, focus more on the ogre units themselves instead of a tooled up tyrant

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/09/01 04:20:21


 
   
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mrfantastical wrote:Yes the core got cheaper, yes bull charge got better, yes the army dropped some restrictions, and if this was it Ogres would be a very good army...

However....

Lord cost went up
Magic items got overpriced/deleted
Gut Magic got it's casting values raised, with no more loremaster
Ogre club, Catharyn Long sword are very much gone
Mawseeker big name, quadruples in price

I don't get it. Ogres weren't bad before, and were actually pretty decent. So why change their book, when you still have all the "Top Tier books" largely un-affected? (I.E. if it's broken armies like Lizardmen ruining the game.... Then Nerf Lizardmen)

You don't reward someone that got out of a swimming pool full of sharks unharmed, by sticking a shive in his side and throwing him back in.

I really hope I'm wrong about the new book, and only time will tell.

.......just lost a game today with the new rules, so sorry about the ALL CAPS RAGE.......



Lord Cost went up:

So? Ogre characters were insanely good for their costs. Lore Master was very powerful for the cost of a SM or Butcher. If you expected this to stick around you were kidding yourself.


Magic Items:

Didn't see this coming either? It is following the model of the other 8th ed books with only a few magic items. Mawseeker, I agree, is overpriced now, but it did need to be costed appropriatly(I think GW did a classic overreaction in this case)


Gutmagic changes:

Again, it is bringing it in line with 8th edition. Gutmagic is actually slightly better as the spells can't be dispelled once up and they can effect multiple units with one casting(also no restrictions on target, Hello regenerating Slavegiant )


Ogre Club/Cathayen Long Sword:

Yeah, its annoying. but I think our new goodies make up for everything.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
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So, to summarize the entire thread: The New OK book, while applying some limitations and several changes, will allow Ogres to rise to new heights upon all our gaming tables.

The decreased cost in several core/ special units give OK a huge advantage over their last book.

The addition of new Monstrous Calvary give OK some extra hitting power to top off their already heavy-handed combat phases.

The addition of a new caster, and access to multiple lores of magic gives much more diversity to OK's magic phase, while increasing it's potency.

New rules for Maneaters, nuff said, these guys are gonna be nasty.

And many other reasons why this book will not only give OK's a much needed power boost, but allow them to contend with many of the tier one and tier two armies that frequent our gaming tables.

This book is going to be a fantastic release and hopefully heralds many more from GW. Hopefully WHFB will have a balanced and terrific future!
   
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The other side of the internet

Just as a precursory glance, has anyone noticed anything that needs to be FAQed yet?

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The fact that Cannon balls are randomized between a Hunter and his Stonehorn mount will need clarification. I can see Empire and Dwarf players having big hissy fits about it.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
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Runnin up on ya.

Surtur wrote:Just as a precursory glance, has anyone noticed anything that needs to be FAQed yet?


Yeah. the Yhetee frost aura and if it stacks with fear to cause an enemy to be reduced to WS0 (would be awesome if so). It's not going to happen all that often but it would be good to know if the effects stack.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Grey Templar wrote:The fact that Cannon balls are randomized between a Hunter and his Stonehorn mount will need clarification. I can see Empire and Dwarf players having big hissy fits about it.


What needs to be clarified? It says in the the hunting beast rule that all shooting is randomized. Cannons=shooting so there you go. Specific codex rule trumps general rulebook rule that cannons hit both. This might be an indication that they realized that cannons are OP in 8th and are trying to mitigate them a bit.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/09/01 14:13:00


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To some completely new to 8th edition:

What is the core build of an Ogre Kingdoms army? I'd like a
sense of what models will go with things before I commit.

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Dankhold Troggoth






Shadeglass Maze

I have army book jealousy . Still real glad Ogres got the reboot! But when I face them with my WoC ogrestar, which I believe is probably costing more and doing a bit less... well, yeah. Army book jealousy

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/09/04 03:11:29


 
   
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malfred wrote:To some completely new to 8th edition:

What is the core build of an Ogre Kingdoms army? I'd like a
sense of what models will go with things before I commit.


The beauty of the new Armybook is that there is no "one list to rule them all." .Nothing really stands out as useless and there are many different builds you can try out.

You can't go wrong with lots of bulls though. They got freaking awesome.
   
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Texas

Yes, if theres one thing that is good, its a lot of ogre bulls!

Still unless I misread, you do not need to have ogre bulls this time around. You can have giant groups of gnoblars and take bunches of leadbelchers, mournfangs, or anything else. So props that theres more freedom of choice in this book

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/09/04 22:03:19


 
   
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I'll probably pick up the rulebook later this week.


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