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Lynata wrote:I assume you're right on the date, but the effect still felt wrong. AP4 would have punched right through the armour, AP5 means the armour has a chance to negate the attack. A couple burn marks reads like complete invulnerability, though.
I mean, bolters have AP5 as well, would you consider it an accurate depiction if they'd just ricochet off the plates?
Burn marks sound fitting for lasguns (and even they have a chance to wound), but hellguns would surely leave a much stronger effect.

Just nitpicking, though. I actually like the Siege of Vraks books and think there should be more like them. But they do make mistakes (another would be misplacing Ryza and changing its planet type), and they are not studio material, and as such not truly a solid reference.

AP4 Heavy Bolters couldn't penetrate the exoskeleton of a Necron Warrior when fired in a volley in the Necron codex, Space Marine Power Armour is similarly durable.

Bolters in the fluff aren't likely to penetrate the chestplate of Power Armour, and the helmet of Power Armour when worn by a Marine has withstood point-blank firing from a bolt-pistol, only dazing the Marine. Said bolter-rounds did, in fact, just "richochet off."

Though, as of current fluff the "hot shot lasgun" as they are now called should penetrate the armour. And it's really such a minor "deviation," especially if the Hellguns were AP5 then, that it's really not any more inconsistent than studio material has been.

@OP: Was a good post, an enjoyable, insightful read.

Just some clarification on something you briefly mentioned: Flak Armour would be largely resistant when put up against small-arms fire by today's standards, Lasguns are better than any assault rifle I can recall, able to penetrate two meters of concrete with a single round as well as blow limbs off, and Flak Armour can indeed defend against Las-fire.

If Lasguns go through 2m of concrete, why does everyone get 4+ coversaves nowdays?

as i see it, the vast majority of weapons will bounce off power armour, mainly because its thicker than some tank armour and made out of ceramite and adamantium (presumably materials far superior to current alloys and compounds). I would assume that flak armour would be roughly equivalent (or slightly better) to current body armour, Carrapace is supposedly a mix of plasteel and ceramite plates (at least the guard stuff is) and is probably about as effective as juggernaught armour from CoD (ie, the ability to wade through small arms fire).

I would postulate that autoguns and lasguns would be roughly equivalent, however i would say that lasguns would be better for all-round effectivenes and maintenance (there would actualy be about 2 moving parts (trigger and power selector). however they would automaticaly cauterise a wound, so if you just winged the target it would be alright. however, you shoot it with a bullet and the target bleeds out. bullets would also be more effective against ceramic armours as ceramics can withstand heat quite well. we can assume too that Autoguns in the 41st milenium are quite a bit more effective than an M4 (5.56) or AK47 (7.62 short), probably more inline with the SCAR-H ( 7.62 longs hurt) or something similar. same with auto-pistols and/or stubbers, not gunna be 9mm, probably more like .44 magnum or .45 rounds.

@OP, good post mate.

No need to assume. The particular autogun described in that Siege of Vraks article on the renegade militiaman is:

This particular autogun is an Agripinaa pattern, type III. It fires a long 8.25 calibre round, on either single shot, semi-automatic, and fully automatic, with a cyclic rate of fire of 650 rounds per minute with a muzzle velocity of 820 meres per second. It takes both a 20 and a 30 round box magazine (the 30 round magazine is shown here). p. 43, Imperial Armour 5: Siege of Vraks part 1

Examples of autopistols and stubbers and heavy stubbers from Imperial Armour 6:

Autopistol
Length: 33cm
Barrel: 17cm
Weight: 1.6kg
Calibre: 4.10
Feed: 30 round box
Cyclic rate of fire: 900 rpm
Muzzle velocity: 255 m/sec

Heavy Stubber
Length: 122cm
Barrel: 60cm
Weight: 7.8 kg
Calibre: long 8.25
Feed: 50 round belt
Cyclic rate of fire: 850 rpm
Muzzle velocity: 750 m/sec

Stub Gun
Length: 26cm
Barrel: 17cm
Weight: 2.2kg
Calibre: short 6.2mm
Feed: 6 round magazine
Cyclic rate of fire: n/a
Muzzle velocity: 220 m/sec

p. 148-149, Imperial Armour 6: Siege of Vraks part 2

Thanks to everyone for the approval! I like to spend time (very likely too much time. . .) thinking about the little details of fictional universes. It makes it much more satisfying if I can come with theories that fit the lore, at least roughly, and explain things that bother me, such as the non-standardization of the IG. It just doesn't make SENSE for an army that has to operate under such nightmarish logistical conditions to be so varied. . .

@IG General; You are, of course, correct in your statements about Earth; but you have to consider that NATO has nothing like the power of the Munitorum. A high-ranking Munitorum official can say, if needs be, " We can make do with a few thousand less soldiers for a short time. If you won't arm your soldiers with standard equipment, we won't take them. If we don't take them, you'll be delinquent in your tithes. If you're delinquent in your tithes, you'll get to explain the matter to the Holy Inquisition." The Imperial Government is entirely, ruthlessly totalitarian. You can do as you please most of the time, as long as you pay your tithes on time. . . but when you're given an order, you do it immediately, as instructed. Or else. That's the only way the Imperium can survive.

Every Planetary Governor serves at the sufference of the Imperial institutions, of which the Munitorum is not the least powerful. And the Munitorum has a POWERFUL incentive to make their work as easy as possible. And, frankly, if the IG really was a collection of "snowflake armies" as nomotog says that problem would be absolutely impossible. Specialist troops? A pain in the ass for the Munitorum, but necessary to deal with situations that the standard troops can't. Space Marines? Thankfully, the Munitorum doesn't need to deal with supplying them, they do it themselves. But totally individual planetary forces, each equipped with unique weapons and requiring unique logistical support? That isn't going to work, unless each planet is also individually supporting their own troops. And that would require each planet to have a significant fleet, and their own mini-Munitorum to run the whole process. In addition, it would foster independence and weaken the chain of command, make it much more difficult to coordinate the ships in orbit, increase the frequency of errors and clashes of jurisdiction. . . it would be a mess. The issue of supplying an interstellar army is difficult enough; I think the Munitorum would take strenuous steps to reduce the complexity, even if that meant deposing a Planetary Governor every now and then.

Void__Dragon wrote:AP4 Heavy Bolters couldn't penetrate the exoskeleton of a Necron Warrior when fired in a volley in the Necron codex, Space Marine Power Armour is similarly durable.

Do you have a page reference? I've glanced over the fluff, but bolters seemed quite effective in the texts I found. It seems odd that the heavier version would be less so. Unless it was a Wraith, given that those have invulnerable saves. The Codex seems to call all Necrons "skeletal warriors" at times, which, given that a single unit has an almost similar name, could lead to confusion?

Void__Dragon wrote:Bolters in the fluff aren't likely to penetrate the chestplate of Power Armour, and the helmet of Power Armour when worn by a Marine has withstood point-blank firing from a bolt-pistol, only dazing the Marine. Said bolter-rounds did, in fact, just "richochet off."

Now that I find somewhat hard to believe, as these helmets really aren't very thick and bolt ammunition is supposed to detonate at impact. Unless that point-blank shot was only a grazing hit. Where is that from?

To clarify, I do not doubt that bolters may not be the most efficient weapon at penetrating power armour, but invulnerability just sounds wrong. Just like hellgun shots ricocheting off power armour. Which I find is a bit hilarious on its own. Did the Berserkers polish their suits before going into battle that they can throw off high-energy-explode-on-impact las rounds?

Iracundus wrote:This particular autogun is an Agripinaa pattern, type III. It fires a long 8.25 calibre round, on either single shot, semi-automatic, and fully automatic, with a cyclic rate of fire of 650 rounds per minute with a muzzle velocity of 820 meres per second.

Calibre 8.25? That's a muzzle diameter of 200mm. Space Marines are getting jealous!

For comparison, heavy bolters have a calibre of 1.00 ...

Lynata wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:Bolters in the fluff aren't likely to penetrate the chestplate of Power Armour, and the helmet of Power Armour when worn by a Marine has withstood point-blank firing from a bolt-pistol, only dazing the Marine. Said bolter-rounds did, in fact, just "richochet off."

Now that I find somewhat hard to believe, as these helmets really aren't very thick and bolt ammunition is supposed to detonate at impact. Unless that point-blank shot was only a grazing hit. Where is that from?

In Chapters Due, Uriel Ventris gets shot in face, point blank by a Bolter. The round only grazed his helmet, but it still hit with enough force to knock him on his ass and destroy his eye.

Well the thing is, Everything you read about the IG says that they are in fact snowflake armies. The description goes that you will see tribal army fighting side to side next to futuristic armies. The picture of them in the BRB shows us 6 regiments and they all look different. Even with different lasguns. It's a rule of world building that you show people the rule before the exception. Seem to be the rule that IG armies are snowflakes. They don't even tell us about this hypothetical standardized army. I mean if that was the case, why don't they tell us that is the case.


You are right about it would be a logistical nightmare, but the IG IS a logistical nightmare. They don't own there own ships, They don't own a lot of ther own production, They even use vehicles/weapons that they can't even make anymore. Not to mention that your supplies lines literally go through hell.

Coolyo294 wrote:In Chapters Due, Uriel Ventris gets shot in face, point blank by a Bolter. The round only grazed his helmet, but it still hit with enough force to knock him on his ass and destroy his eye.

Ah, just a Black Library novel.
But to destroy this eye, would the round not have to ... uh ... get some of its damage through the armour?

nomotog wrote:Well the thing is, Everything you read about the IG says that they are in fact snowflake armies. The description goes that you will see tribal army fighting side to side next to futuristic armies. The picture of them in the BRB shows us 6 regiments and they all look different. Even with different lasguns. It's a rule of world building that you show people the rule before the exception. Seem to be the rule that IG armies are snowflakes. They don't even tell us about this hypothetical standardized army. I mean if that was the case, why don't they tell us that is the case.

See the 4th edition IG Codex color section. It shows a sampling of regiments from different worlds, all represented with one of the existing lines of IG models (since it is obviously not feasible to have a separate line for every world in the Imperium).

We see jungle trops like the Catachans and 898th Cromaryn, desert warriors like the Tallarn and the 35th Orcallian. We see troops in winter gear like the Valhallans and the 11th Kado. We see a range of Cadian troops and then also other worlds with troops outfitted like Cadians, including worlds that have had passing mention in other background such as the Harakoni Warhawks and the Brimlock Dragoons (Damocles Gulf Crusade).

What this shows is there is variation but still variation that mostly conforms to several patterns of armament and equipment.

In the Imperial Armour 5, on p. 16, it describes the Krieg infantry as armed with lasguns with 21 megathule (whatever that is) powerpacks as opposed to the more common ones like the 19 megathule one (as described on p. 16, 4th ed. IG Codex as being what is used in the Kantrael manufactured lasguns supplied to Cadia).

Having some variation does not exactly disprove the assertion by BeRzErKeR that the IG is a monolithic entity focused on standardization. It is still standardized in the way a fast food menu is standardized. There are choices and variation but they are constrained.

Lynataer wrote:Calibre 8.25? That's a muzzle diameter of 200mm. Space Marines are getting jealous!

For comparison, heavy bolters have a calibre of 1.00 ...

How and from where are you getting this? Where does it give a heavy bolter's stats? The IA stuff just seems to say the autopistols shoot 4.10mm rounds, while autoguns shoot 8.25mm rounds. How is that so ridiculous compared to an AK-47 with 7.62mm rounds?

@Iracundus; He was making a joke. You said 8.25 CALIBER, which is different from 8.25 MM. An 8.25 caliber firearm would have an internal barrel diameter of 8.25 inches, meaning it would be significantly wider than your hand is long. For that matter, it would be larger than some artillery pieces.

Iracundus wrote:How and from where are you getting this? Where does it give a heavy bolter's stats? The IA stuff just seems to say the autopistols shoot 4.10mm rounds, while autoguns shoot 8.25mm rounds. How is that so ridiculous compared to an AK-47 with 7.62mm rounds?

No. Your quote / the IA says "calibre 8.25". Whenever calibre refers to mm it has to be specifically added. By default, calibre is always inches. And 8.25 inches are 20.9something cm.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliber

Bolt weapon calibre is pretty much disseminated all over the fluff. Off the top of my head the 3E rulebook has a very good explanation on boltguns where it says they are calibre 0.75.
I'd need some time to track down a source for the heavy bolter - that said, it wouldn't even be necessary, the boltgun example above is just as good.
And here you have a pic for proof.

BeRzErKeR wrote:@Iracundus; He was making a joke. You said 8.25 CALIBER, which is different from 8.25 MM. An 8.25 caliber firearm would have an internal barrel diameter of 8.25 inches, meaning it would be significantly wider than your hand is long. For that matter, it would be larger than some artillery pieces.

It's not a joke, sadly - his quote is precise, the IA does say "calibre". Which baffles me a bit, given that the book is otherwise pretty well written from a military point of view.

Lynata wrote:

Iracundus wrote:How and from where are you getting this? Where does it give a heavy bolter's stats? The IA stuff just seems to say the autopistols shoot 4.10mm rounds, while autoguns shoot 8.25mm rounds. How is that so ridiculous compared to an AK-47 with 7.62mm rounds?

No. Your quote / the IA says "calibre 8.25". Whenever calibre refers to mm it has to be specifically added. By default, calibre is always inches. And 8.25 inches are 20.9something cm.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliber

Bolt weapon calibre is pretty much disseminated all over the fluff. Off the top of my head the 3E rulebook has a very good explanation on boltguns where it says they are calibre 0.75.
I'd need some time to track down a source for the heavy bolter - that said, it wouldn't even be necessary, the boltgun example above is just as good.
And here you have a pic for proof.

Considering the Imperium in 40K appears to be pure metric, with no explicit non-metric units stated, I suppose the best that can be done is to handwave that the default has changed so that in the Imperium's time it is to give caliber/calibre in mm.

Iracundus wrote:Considering the Imperium in 40K appears to be pure metric, with no explicit non-metric units stated, I suppose the best that can be done is to handwave that the default has changed so that in the Imperium's time it is to give caliber/calibre in mm.

Except that all studio sources stick to inches (as you can also see on the image) and lbs. I can surely find more like that one, if you don't believe me.

The most logical explanation is that the IA writer simply forgot to add a "mm" there, I guess.

NATO is a treaty organization, not an empire which rules by divine right.

Just remember that when trying to compare NATO's attemtps at standardization to the Imperium's.

My comparison of NATO/ Soviet supply systems against that of IoM is still valid: if, on earth, one collection of "voluntary" partners and one monolithic bloc can't get standardisation, what hope of enforcing it across galaxies?

Fluff and game-wise, we're expected to suspend common sense and accept that in 40k, huge inter stellar ships swan about collecting random regiments here and there, wander through the warp and , hopefully, reach their intended destination in time to do battle--with swords?

There may well be some munitorum burocrat issuing diktats left ,right & centre, but I rather imagine millions of astropaths on distant worlds coming back with "say again, over", "what?" " sorry, can't hear you" and, of course " please stay on the line, your call is important to us"

Human nature, bummer ain't it?

Lynata wrote:Do you have a page reference? I've glanced over the fluff, but bolters seemed quite effective in the texts I found. It seems odd that the heavier version would be less so. Unless it was a Wraith, given that those have invulnerable saves. The Codex seems to call all Necrons "skeletal warriors" at times, which, given that a single unit has an almost similar name, could lead to confusion?

Page 56. Though, one part I forgot is that the mass-reactive core had been taken out of the heavy bolter's rounds, so it's not really valid, nd no longer worthy of discussion. Though, earlier in the codex Necron Warriors withstand normal bolter fire pretty handily, and were virtually immune to Lasguns.

Lynata wrote:Now that I find somewhat hard to believe, as these helmets really aren't very thick and bolt ammunition is supposed to detonate at impact. Unless that point-blank shot was only a grazing hit. Where is that from?

To clarify, I do not doubt that bolters may not be the most efficient weapon at penetrating power armour, but invulnerability just sounds wrong. Just like hellgun shots ricocheting off power armour. Which I find is a bit hilarious on its own. Did the Berserkers polish their suits before going into battle that they can throw off high-energy-explode-on-impact las rounds?

The Chaos Space Marines codex, page 45. A Chaos Marine takes three bolter-rounds to the chest and just gets angry. He open-fires with his bolt pistol at point-blank range in the face of a Loyalist, who recoils under the salvo, but is otherwise fine. And detonate upon impact? I was under the impression they were timed to detonate after penetration. In fact, looking at the Imperial Guard codex I happen to have open at the moment, it says just that: "The boltgun, or 'bolter,' is a rare and devastating weapon among the ranks of the Imperial Guard. It fires self-propelled missiles, or 'bolts', that explode upon penetrating its target, blowing it up from the inside."

On a similar note, in the 5e Imperial Guard codex, it notes that Storm Troopers wearing Carapace Armour can "wade through a torrent of small-arms fire that would kill a normal Guardsman outright." Just for another studio source on the protection varieties of armour can provide, and when it says "small-arms fire" I doubt it is referring to the Lasgun. That's not the type of "small arms fire" Storm Troopers have to deal with generally.

Don't misunderstand, Power Armour is by no means infallible, but generally the boltgun has to find a weakness in the Power Armour to do any real damage (The Necron codex actually notes it is similar for a Necron Warrior, noting that though an Inquisitor was capable of downing a Necron Warrior with his first burst, his second found no weaknesses in the exoskeleton), for instance, a bolter that hits the side of the knee will probably penetrate the armour, hell, a Las-round will as well. I think the joints in general tend to be "weak spots," actually.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lord Commander Phyrus wrote:If Lasguns go through 2m of concrete, why does everyone get 4+ coversaves nowdays?

Partially because concrete isn't used that much in construction I don't believe, stronger alternatives like Plasteel or Permacrete are. I also think the concealment cover brings you is an issue.

Though I wouldn't think about it too much. Trees can apparently protect you from the blast of a Demolisher Cannon.

Void__Dragon wrote:A Chaos Marine takes three bolter-rounds to the chest and just gets angry. He open-fires with his bolt pistol at point-blank range in the face of a Loyalist, who recoils under the salvo, but is otherwise fine.

I'm actually sort of okay with that, what I find completely absurd is the idea that bolt rounds (and hellguns) would have no effect whatsoever. Marines in particular are rather tough, which adds to the protective value of their armour. Many shots that "punch through" may still have little effect. Let's just say that the depiction of that scene in IA felt really wrong to me. That's like two squads of Marines meeting, emptying their bolters, and then deciding to part ways again because they realize their weapons don't do anything.

Void__Dragon wrote:And detonate upon impact? I was under the impression they were timed to detonate after penetration.

Yes, it's a "microsecond fuse" that gets primed as soon as the tip touches something. Upon penetration it will detonate within the armour - but even when not punching through it would still "blow up" in front of it. Bullets that do not penetrate their targets do not simply "fly away", they get stopped cold and burst into pieces as the kinetic force drives it further against/into the obstacle. There's some really cool slo-mo videos on youtube, you could almost consider it a form of art: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fgn7MUp6UxA

Void__Dragon wrote:On a similar note, in the 5e Imperial Guard codex, it notes that Storm Troopers wearing Carapace Armour can "wade through a torrent of small-arms fire that would kill a normal Guardsman outright." Just for another studio source on the protection varieties of armour can provide, and when it says "small-arms fire" I doubt it is referring to the Lasgun. That's not the type of "small arms fire" Storm Troopers have to deal with generally.

Why shouldn't it be? The lasgun is undoubtedly the most common weapon of the known universe, and it may well be that the Imperial Guard mostly gets deployed against insurgents.

Void__Dragon wrote:Don't misunderstand, Power Armour is by no means infallible, but generally the boltgun has to find a weakness in the Power Armour to do any real damage (The Necron codex actually notes it is similar for a Necron Warrior, noting that though an Inquisitor was capable of downing a Necron Warrior with his first burst, his second found no weaknesses in the exoskeleton), for instance, a bolter that hits the side of the knee will probably penetrate the armour, hell, a Las-round will as well. I think the joints in general tend to be "weak spots," actually.

I certainly agree about "finding weak spots", but I would say they are far more common than just the joints, including areas where the plating is thinner than elsewhere (such as the helmet or the limbs or the belly). That would far better justify the stats and dice rolls on the TT, around which all fluff has been created.

From page 8 of the Codex Angels of Death:
"Against most small arms the armour reduces the chance of injury by between 50-85%, and it provides some form of protection against all except the most powerful weapons encountered on the battlefields of the 41st millennium."

IG GENERAL wrote:My comparison of NATO/ Soviet supply systems against that of IoM is still valid: if, on earth, one collection of "voluntary" partners and one monolithic bloc can't get standardisation, what hope of enforcing it across galaxies?

Because it isn't voluntary. It's mandatory. Often on pain of death.

IG GENERAL wrote:My comparison of NATO/ Soviet supply systems against that of IoM is still valid: if, on earth, one collection of "voluntary" partners and one monolithic bloc can't get standardisation, what hope of enforcing it across galaxies?

Fluff and game-wise, we're expected to suspend common sense and accept that in 40k, huge inter stellar ships swan about collecting random regiments here and there, wander through the warp and , hopefully, reach their intended destination in time to do battle--with swords?

There may well be some munitorum burocrat issuing diktats left ,right & centre, but I rather imagine millions of astropaths on distant worlds coming back with "say again, over", "what?" " sorry, can't hear you" and, of course " please stay on the line, your call is important to us"

Human nature, bummer ain't it?

Everything the Imperium makes is from STCs.

The Imperium can't not have standardization.

TrollPie wrote:Lasguns are superior to modern assault rifles in every single way: more accurate, more powerful, more efficient etc. and can be charged by almost anything (even being left in the sun), making them a logistical dream come true.
As well as sci-fi materials such as plasfibre, thermoplas and such flak armour commonly contains layers of carbon fibre, which is a stronger, lighter and more heat resistant material than Kevlar.

Just a bit of nitpicking here... but if we're trying to compare real world stuff to the grimdark, we may as well get our own gear right. Carbon fibre is not more impact resistant than Kevlar. This is why modern bullet proofing uses a lot of Kevlar (among other things). I work with the stuff regularly and it is a pain. Carbon fibre is relatively brittle, and as both are composite weaves of different fibres (usually synthetic and highly carcinogenic) stuck together with a resin under pressure and heat, the strength is largely dependent on how many layers you have. More layers=more strength, but if there's any flaws in the resin, it's extremely weak. Unfortunately, there's no way to test for that without destroying it. There were a few Airbus crashes caused by this - the planes in question had a rudder made out of carbon fibre (roughly 800-850 layers of it), and this failed due to minute air bubbles in the resin. The rudder snapped off, the jet speared in, everybody died. It also corrodes the feth out of aluminum.

Apart from that, pretty sweet. As Stephen Fry once said - "All a great science fiction has to have, for me, is standardized computer cables"

Lynata wrote:I'm actually sort of okay with that, what I find completely absurd is the idea that bolt rounds (and hellguns) would have no effect whatsoever. Marines in particular are rather tough, which adds to the protective value of their armour. Many shots that "punch through" may still have little effect. Let's just say that the depiction of that scene in IA felt really wrong to me. That's like two squads of Marines meeting, emptying their bolters, and then deciding to part ways again because they realize their weapons don't do anything.

Well, it "scorched" the armour? Does that mean that it burned it, but didn't penetrate and harm the Marine, or what? Also, keep in mind, ceramite conducts almost no heat, it's very effective as a defense against energy weaponry such as lasguns.

Lynata wrote:Yes, it's a "microsecond fuse" that gets primed as soon as the tip touches something. Upon penetration it will detonate within the armour - but even when not punching through it would still "blow up" in front of it. Bullets that do not penetrate their targets do not simply "fly away", they get stopped cold and burst into pieces as the kinetic force drives it further against/into the obstacle. There's some really cool slo-mo videos on youtube, you could almost consider it a form of art: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fgn7MUp6UxA

Well, even if it explodes in front of it, I doubt it would penetrate the armour. Modern tank armour is resistant to explosive force, Power Armour beats modern Tank armour.

Lynata wrote:Why shouldn't it be? The lasgun is undoubtedly the most common weapon of the known universe, and it may well be that the Imperial Guard mostly gets deployed against insurgents.

I would argue the Guard in general has to deal with Orks more than anything, and why would you design armour that can only defend against the bare minimum weaponry in the setting? Something that protects against a las-round isn't going to stop a bolt-round.

Lynata wrote:I certainly agree about "finding weak spots", but I would say they are far more common than just the joints, including areas where the plating is thinner than elsewhere (such as the helmet or the limbs or the belly). That would far better justify the stats and dice rolls on the TT, around which all fluff has been created.

From page 8 of the Codex Angels of Death:
"Against most small arms the armour reduces the chance of injury by between 50-85%, and it provides some form of protection against all except the most powerful weapons encountered on the battlefields of the 41st millennium."

The joints are just but one example, and it's been demonstrated that the helmet can withstand bolter fire. While the arms would likely be weaker than the chest-plate or the pauldrons (especially the pauldrons), I don't see any reason for a las-round to be guaranteed to breach it, not to mention his arms are pretty small targets. Relatively, of course. His stomach also seems well-armoured to me, as does the majority of the leg, though, I haven't seen any fluff that detailed the exact weak points of power armour, sadly.

Yes, I've seen you quote that passage numerous times, but I stand by what I said before: Power Armour wasn't designed with deflecting Las-rounds in mind. It was made for Astartes to Astartes combat, since Mark VII power armour, the most common type in the setting, was created during the Horus Heresy.

Void__Dragon wrote:Well, it "scorched" the armour? Does that mean that it burned it, but didn't penetrate and harm the Marine, or what?

It did nothing. The shots "ricocheted" off the armour. Yes, high-energy las rounds that are supposed to explode on impact were mirrored back by the shiny Berserker armour. >_>

Void__Dragon wrote:Well, even if it explodes in front of it, I doubt it would penetrate the armour.

No, no, not penetrate of course. But weaken. Though it is only artist interpretation, I recall lots of images where Marines had chestplates with little "blast craters" on them - that's kinda how I'd imagine it.

Void__Dragon wrote:I would argue the Guard in general has to deal with Orks more than anything, and why would you design armour that can only defend against the bare minimum weaponry in the setting? Something that protects against a las-round isn't going to stop a bolt-round.

Because armour that withstands more is so heavy that you need powered fibre-bundle actuators. Even carapace chestplates are already described as heavy and encumbering, ask yourself how an entire suit would feel like - I'd argue you cannot get more out of it without drastically reducing the trooper's mobility.

As for orks - given how much internal strife is pointed out in the books ("internecine wars are commonplace and often mankind faces its greatest threat from within" ), I'm not sure if I'd not put them 2nd, if only because the really big Waaaghs seem comparatively rare, whereas heresy and treason seem to lurk at every corner. Some times it's an apostate cardinal, other times a noble who does not want to pay his tithes, yet other times a world or a regiment gets infiltrated by a Chaos cult...
But even then, the standard weapon of orks is the shoota, and that one only has AP6. Even the common trooper's flak armour would allow an armour save against that.

Void__Dragon wrote:While the arms would likely be weaker than the chest-plate or the pauldrons (especially the pauldrons), I don't see any reason for a las-round to be guaranteed to breach it, not to mention his arms are pretty small targets. Relatively, of course. His stomach also seems well-armoured to me, as does the majority of the leg, though, I haven't seen any fluff that detailed the exact weak points of power armour, sadly.

Not guaranteed, but having a proper chance. Space Marines can get felled by ordinary lasguns - a high-powered version should fare even better and not just leave a couple of black spots on the plate.

Void__Dragon wrote:Yes, I've seen you quote that passage numerous times, but I stand by what I said before: Power Armour wasn't designed with deflecting Las-rounds in mind. It was made for Astartes to Astartes combat, since Mark VII power armour, the most common type in the setting, was created during the Horus Heresy.

But that's not what the sentence addresses. Lasguns are arguably amongst the most common small arms; that goes for the Horus Heresy as well, given that you had not only Astartes vs Astartes, but Astartes + Imperial Army vs Astartes + Imperial Army. Let's compare the quote with the tabletop mechanics: A Space Marine has a chance of 83.5% to negate a lasgun hit (calculating both his armour safe and his toughness safe), which falls exactly into the end spectrum of that fluff quote. Do you really think that's a coincidence?

Damn, we've come far from the original issue.

IA actually introduces a lot of other weird ideas, too, so maybe we shouldn't get too hung up on this one. For example, there's one Order of Sisters using the colour blue, despite all sources saying they're only using white, red and black in various combinations. Other times they mention several Storm Trooper regiments where GW books clarify that it is only a single one. And the planet type of Ryza gets switched for apparently no reason. It's just ... well, not drastic stuff, but it's the usual minor sloppiness you see in lots of BL novels.
To be fair, much of it can be accredited simply due to it being different writers; it is next to impossible to keep track of all the minor details that were mentioned by GW somewhere years ago unless you're one of the few guys who worked on these books. But at the end of the day, I don't think there is much of a difference between BL and FW. Though that shouldn't keep anyone from adopting things they like for their own personal interpretation, as long as they do not conflict the studio material.

Lynata wrote:It did nothing. The shots "ricocheted" off the armour. Yes, high-energy las rounds that are supposed to explode on impact were mirrored back by the shiny Berserker armour. >_>

Hm. What?

I'll admit that's peculiar. Even were they normal lasguns, for them to "ricochet" is just stupid, being stopped by the plate of power armour is one thing, but even las-rounds can weaken the chest plate of power armour, and even breach it after wearing it down.

Lynata wrote:No, no, not penetrate of course. But weaken. Though it is only artist interpretation, I recall lots of images where Marines had chestplates with little "blast craters" on them - that's kinda how I'd imagine it.

Well, even las fire should be able to weaken it, so I would agree.

Lynata wrote:Because armour that withstands more is so heavy that you need powered fibre-bundle actuators. Even carapace chestplates are already described as heavy and encumbering, ask yourself how an entire suit would feel like - I'd argue you cannot get more out of it without drastically reducing the trooper's mobility.

As for orks - given how much internal strife is pointed out in the books ("internecine wars are commonplace and often mankind faces its greatest threat from within" ), I'm not sure if I'd not put them 2nd, if only because the really big Waaaghs seem comparatively rare, whereas heresy and treason seem to lurk at every corner. Some times it's an apostate cardinal, other times a noble who does not want to pay his tithes, yet other times a world or a regiment gets infiltrated by a Chaos cult...
But even then, the standard weapon of orks is the shoota, and that one only has AP6. Even the common trooper's flak armour would allow an armour save against that.

Carapace is heavy for a reason, because the thick ceramite plates offer a considerable amount of protection. Though, admittedly, it lacks the same amount of showings Power Armour has. Though, it is said to be easily capable of stopping a "bullet," whatever the hell that means. I don't understand the need for vagueness.

But Orks are the most numerous race in the galaxy, and while there are not as many big Waaaghs, there are numerous smaller ones mentioned often enough. Admittedly, I did somehow forget Shootas and Sluggas were AP6.

Lynata wrote:Not guaranteed, but having a proper chance. Space Marines can get felled by ordinary lasguns - a high-powered version should fare even better and not just leave a couple of black spots on the plate.

Well, were it on the chest and shoulders, I could perhaps see that. The chest and shoulders are especially well-armoured.

Lynata wrote:But that's not what the sentence addresses. Lasguns are arguably amongst the most common small arms; that goes for the Horus Heresy as well, given that you had not only Astartes vs Astartes, but Astartes + Imperial Army vs Astartes + Imperial Army. Let's compare the quote with the tabletop mechanics: A Space Marine has a chance of 83.5% to negate a lasgun hit (calculating both his armour safe and his toughness safe), which falls exactly into the end spectrum of that fluff quote. Do you really think that's a coincidence?

Damn, we've come far from the original issue.

IA actually introduces a lot of other weird ideas, too, so maybe we shouldn't get too hung up on this one. For example, there's one Order of Sisters using the colour blue, despite all sources saying they're only using white, red and black in various combinations. Other times they mention several Storm Trooper regiments where GW books clarify that it is only a single one. And the planet type of Ryza gets switched for apparently no reason. It's just ... well, not drastic stuff, but it's the usual minor sloppiness you see in lots of BL novels.
To be fair, much of it can be accredited simply due to it being different writers; it is next to impossible to keep track of all the minor details that were mentioned by GW somewhere years ago unless you're one of the few guys who worked on these books. But at the end of the day, I don't think there is much of a difference between BL and FW. Though that shouldn't keep anyone from adopting things they like for their own personal interpretation, as long as they do not conflict the studio material.

That's the thing, Mark VII Power Armour was made to be the best Power Armour to date, obviously. Compare this to Mark IV Power Armour, the most common variety of pre-Heresy power armour, originally conceived as the final, best suit of Power Armour, was designed before the Heresy, and for combatting aliens. By this time, the existence of Orks, Eldar, and other xenos was well-known, so it would be made to withstand more than a lasgun. Mark VII power armour more so. Although guardsmen did defect during the Heresy, Mark VII power armour was made with fighting fellow Astartes in mind, not guardsmen.

I haven't read much of Imperial Armour short of their Apocalypse books, so can't really say. And to be fair, there are inconsistencies within studio material as well.

Heh. The OP's......op struck a chord with me, as I wrote my Master's thesis on logistics. Specifically, the logistics of the 101st Airborne in the First Gulf War. However, any of you who may be in college and have access to Proquest's Theses and Dissertations probably won't be able to see it; to my knowledge, Austin Peay State U still doesn't send its theses to Proquest. Which makes me mad.

That said, I've heard the Bradley quote before, but never attributed to him. I'm much more a fan of a quote that Admiral King once said: "I don't know what the hell this "logistics" is that Marshall is always talking about, but I want some of it."

Now, something else that I feel has been overlooked is the fuel source used for the Guard. Promethium. As far as I can tell, Russes use it (and whatever else they want to stick in there as well), Chimerae use it, Valks and Vultures use it, Sentinels use it, and so on.

Single fuel sources are *amazing* in terms of logistical simplicity. Imagine having to transport diesel for some vehicles, and jet fuel for others. Throw in gasoline for generators or whatever. It'd suck.

Now, with the single fuel thing, I believe that there are also lasgun charging ports in Chimerae, as well as generators (probably powered by promethium) that also recharge powerpacks. So, this means that, in some cases, fuel = ammo. Which just makes it even MORE odd, in my thinking that the Guard can't use Multilasers as squad heavy weapons. Rather than having to bring down solid ammo from offworld, they could just hook up a big ol' battery to a generator and recharge. Ditto for lascannons.

That's all for now. I'll check back later.

Ogiwan wrote:
Now, with the single fuel thing, I believe that there are also lasgun charging ports in Chimerae, as well as generators (probably powered by promethium) that also recharge powerpacks. So, this means that, in some cases, fuel = ammo. Which just makes it even MORE odd, in my thinking that the Guard can't use Multilasers as squad heavy weapons. Rather than having to bring down solid ammo from offworld, they could just hook up a big ol' battery to a generator and recharge. Ditto for lascannons.

Hmm. I didn't know that; if so, you're right, it's odd. Given that directed energy weapons are the most common armament of the Guard (see lasguns) having a simple 'upscaled' version such as the multilaser as a SAW-equivalent would seem to make sense. Hell, for that matter, they ought to be using multilasers instead of heavy bolters!

The only argument against that idea I can think of at present is that you'd lose some energy in transfer, so you'd need more fuel overall. . . but we've already assumed that problem away with the lasgun. Perhaps multilasers deplete a battery too rapidly to be useful? They supposedly fire at a much higher rate than lascannons, even if each individual shot is weaker, so it might just be that in order to be effective they require a continuously-active power system like a running Chimera engine?

If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say at least some regiments DO use multilasers. I model them, and then use them as Heavy Bolters in the rules...

...but they are "multilasers" in the fluff sense.

ALSO: to the OP, this is a wonderful post. It's what I keep telling people who claim an Abrams will beat a Russ. The Russ has plasteel-adamantite armor layers, and a gun with better chemical charges in both the cartridge and the HEAT tip.

Same thing with the lasguns.

Bravo, sir, bravo.

It's actually been stated multiple times by GW that the reason the Multilaser is vehicle mounted and not infantry portable is because of the energy requirements and the need for an advanced cooling system.

As far as the logistics of heavy bolters--apparently, the shells are stupid easy to produce.

That's been said of the plasma cannon too. If they can find cooling for that, then surely they could get cooling for a man-portable multilaser! Not to mention they have power packs for walking tanks that apparently last millenia for space marines.

Except the Imperial Guard can't field man-portable Plasma Cannons.

The Space Marines can field them, but that's what those backpacks on Plasma Cannon Devastators contain. An advanced cooling and energy regulation system to prevent it from blowing up.

And you've missed the point either way. A multilaser is not a lascannon or a plasma cannon, which are going to be firing maybe one or two shots a minute.

A multilaser is putting down hundreds of shots. It's a suppression weapon, like a heavy bolter.

If we take the game literally, the multilaser only shoots 3x as fast as a lascannon, with much less than 33% of the lascannon's power per shot...