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htj wrote:It's 1/6 of the time, not 1/3 of the time. Unless your dice have two ones on them.

He was referring to rapid-fire. There is 1/3 of a chance that one of the two dice will be a 1.

Rocketmike wrote:

htj wrote:It's 1/6 of the time, not 1/3 of the time. Unless your dice have two ones on them.

He was referring to rapid-fire. There is 1/3 of a chance that one of the two dice will be a 1.

It's actually 11/36, but I guess that's close enough.

How is it 11/36? Can't seem to work the maths.

I just want to say, that coming from tyranids, i find plasma guns are just fine, most guard armies seem to be able to fit plenty of them in, and that combined with 5 fire point chimeras, you wont find any sympathy from me. look at a veteran with a plasma gun, thats about 22 points right? probably in a chimera, so hell probably get in at least 2 shooting phases before the enemy closes, and one will be rapid firing, so 3 shots, 2 hits. that will most likely kill 2 marines, and even if it is just a plain tac marine, youve already made your points back, and you will do 4/3 or 1.3334 wounds to a standard MC, again ignoring armor saves, and as almost all MC's are over 100 points, you just killed roughly 30 points. And then we still need to kill your transport, which means you will probably get off another rapid firing phase. Sorry, i just can't fathom decreasing a plasma gun's points.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Rocketmike wrote:

htj wrote:It's 1/6 of the time, not 1/3 of the time. Unless your dice have two ones on them.

He was referring to rapid-fire. There is 1/3 of a chance that one of the two dice will be a 1.

It's actually 11/36, but I guess that's close enough.

Ah, OK. I would consider that firing it twice, hence the confusion.

In the Black Templar codex (I know we need an update) plasma guns are only 6 pts

I think that is because templars want to be assaulting, and so a non assault weapon is a lot more detrimental to the squad. just my 2 cents

Durza wrote:How is it 11/36? Can't seem to work the maths.

Snake eyes is only one probability.

1,1
1,2
1,3
1,4
1,5
1,6
2,1
3,1
4,1
5,1
6,1

on 2 dice there are 36 probabilities, those 11 are the only results that cause overheat.

question: your Plasma Gun is glowing bright and it's shaking, there is a tyranid monstrosity barelling towards your general direction. you gotta take the shot, yeah?

Lotet wrote:question: your Plasma Gun is glowing bright and it's shaking, there is a tyranid monstrosity barelling towards your general direction. you gotta take the shot, yeah?

Throw it at him/her/it!

Surtur wrote:

Durza wrote:How is it 11/36? Can't seem to work the maths.

Snake eyes is only one probability.

1,1
1,2
1,3
1,4
1,5
1,6
2,1
3,1
4,1
5,1
6,1

on 2 dice there are 36 probabilities, those 11 are the only results that cause overheat.

You forgot about the other 1,1 roll. Every other roll in that list occurs in opposite pairs. Therefore making it 12/36 and 1/3 chance as the previous poster mentioned.

Artanis wrote:You forgot about the other 1,1 roll. Every other roll in that list occurs in opposite pairs. Therefore making it 12/36 and 1/3 chance as the previous poster mentioned.

Not sure if serious...

Unfortunately, I think he is.

lol

Sorry Artanis, they are right. The reason I came to 1/3 in the first place was that if you roll a single die, you have a 1/6 chance. When you roll the next die you again have a 1/6 chance regardless of what the other die result was. So 2x1/6 comes to a 1/3 chance of rolling a 1. But the question isn't really "what are your chances to roll a 1" but instead "what are the chances when firing 2 shots that you will take a wound?"

Rocketmike wrote:Sorry Artanis, they are right. The reason I came to 1/3 in the first place was that if you roll a single die, you have a 1/6 chance. When you roll the next die you again have a 1/6 chance regardless of what the other die result was. So 2x1/6 comes to a 1/3 chance of rolling a 1. But the question isn't really "what are your chances to roll a 1" but instead "what are the chances when firing 2 shots that you will take a wound?"

My bad, wasn't thinking straight @_@ Cheers for clearing that up.

(got confused with the chance of rolling a 1, versus the 11 possibilities of getting a 1 from rolling 2 die)

htj wrote:Unless your dice have two ones on them.

There's times I swear they do...
But I think overheat should be on a double for PG. Double 1's is a little too infrequent, but on any roll of 1 just gak's me to no end.

If the Gets Hot! rule didn't allow for armor saves, which would kinda make sense because they have such great AP against the target being fired on, then I could see Gets Hot being something to fuss about. I know guard kill themselves with it all the time because their armor stinks, but even then a guardsmen is going to fire a pistol. 1/6 of a chance he will get wounded. Then a 2/3 chance he wont make the armor save. Even a lowly Guardsman only has a 1/9 chance of actually dying from using his plasma weapon. A space Marine's chances of dying from a single shot are 1/18. I've seen it happen a few times, but when 2 marines die out of a squad that just lit up and pwnd my wraithlord with a ton of plasma guns, I think it's more than a fair trade.

sarukai wrote:Or... maybe melta guns should rise in price to match the plasma guns?

Perhaps this is the true statement. Assault S8 A1 12" Melta pen at 6" and AP1.
Rapidfire S7 24" AP2

1. Assault is superior to rapid fire as it doesn't preclude assaulting in the same round.
2. Strength 8 superior to S7.
3. Range is a minus
4. ROF under 12" is a minus
5. AP1 means it is superior vs vehicles.
6. Melta pen at 6" is superior.

So tell me again why plasma is worth 5 pts more than melta weapons. I would argue that given the frequency of people spamming melta weapons, the costs should be reversed and STILL people would take the meltagun over the plasma gun.

Kylis wrote:

lunarman wrote:I really don't understand why they are 15 points, compared to a meltaguns 10.

You should play Black Templars, they have 6pts plasma guns.

6pts plasma and 15pts lascannon in a five man squad

And regarding the 15pts plasma gun:

you can kill a lot more than 15pts of Space Marines with 1 plasma gun

Look at it this way.

Meltagun:
10 points
Designed to kill vehicles
35-? pts

Plasma Gun:
15 points
Kills heavy infantry:
25+pts per model

At the end of the day the plasma gun is used to kill more expensive thing (200 pt terminator squads etc)...

now the plasma pistol on the other hand...

Lightcavalier wrote:Look at it this way.

Meltagun:
10 points
Designed to kill vehicles
35-? pts

Plasma Gun:
15 points
Kills heavy infantry:
25+pts per model

At the end of the day the plasma gun is used to kill more expensive thing (200 pt terminator squads etc)...

now the plasma pistol on the other hand...

Meltaguns can kill Land Raiders with one shot. Those cost 220+ points.

Lightcavalier wrote:Look at it this way.

Meltagun:
10 points
Designed to kill vehicles
35-? pts

Plasma Gun:
15 points
Kills heavy infantry:
25+pts per model

At the end of the day the plasma gun is used to kill more expensive thing (200 pt terminator squads etc)...

now the plasma pistol on the other hand...

I use plasma pistols in my assault squads against MEQ armies.... please don't get mad :/

but seriously... they're not that bad (Only 5pts for BT though)

I see it like this: The Plasma is used to pick off those very annoying threats at a longer range than the melta, and I'm refering to infantry and such, not vehicles. Yes, you loose the nice touch of the doubletap at that range, but you are able to get, generally, some guaranteed kills on deadly melee threats, or something similair, at the risk of having to roll an armor save yourself.

I can't speak about knowing this first hand, as I have yet to build and use my CSM army to see how plasma actually works :I

Plasma pays more because it can cause more wounds per shooting phase.

Melta is limited to killing tanks and killing 1 enemy model per round.

Plasma also pays for versitility, you can pop light vehicles with it too.

Grey Templar wrote:Plasma pays more because it can cause more wounds per shooting phase.

Melta is limited to killing tanks and killing 1 enemy model per round.

Plasma also pays for versitility, you can pop light vehicles with it too.

+1 you also have twice the range if you choose to single fire.

Grey Templar wrote:Plasma pays more because it can cause more wounds per shooting phase.

Melta is limited to killing tanks and killing 1 enemy model per round.

Plasma also pays for versitility, you can pop light vehicles with it too.

VegRAWR wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Plasma pays more because it can cause more wounds per shooting phase.

Melta is limited to killing tanks and killing 1 enemy model per round.

Plasma also pays for versitility, you can pop light vehicles with it too.

+1 you also have twice the range if you choose to single fire.

Everything I said xD Glad to knwo I wasn't alone in this mentality

Takeshishin wrote:I see it like this: The Plasma is used to pick off those very annoying threats at a longer range than the melta, and I'm refering to infantry and such, not vehicles. Yes, you loose the nice touch of the doubletap at that range, but you are able to get, generally, some guaranteed kills on deadly melee threats, or something similair, at the risk of having to roll an armor save yourself.

I can't speak about knowing this first hand, as I have yet to build and use my CSM army to see how plasma actually works :I

+1 sorry for not recognizing your awesomeness...

Rocketmike wrote:If the Gets Hot! rule didn't allow for armor saves, which would kinda make sense because they have such great AP against the target being fired on, then I could see Gets Hot being something to fuss about. I know guard kill themselves with it all the time because their armor stinks, but even then a guardsmen is going to fire a pistol. 1/6 of a chance he will get wounded. Then a 2/3 chance he wont make the armor save. Even a lowly Guardsman only has a 1/9 chance of actually dying from using his plasma weapon. A space Marine's chances of dying from a single shot are 1/18. I've seen it happen a few times, but when 2 marines die out of a squad that just lit up and pwnd my wraithlord with a ton of plasma guns, I think it's more than a fair trade.

It's really not though, especially given the prevalence of cover and vital nature of Meltaweapons and the incredible inflation of weaponry we've seen over three editions. When Plasma Guns were 5pts and few such weapons had firepower liek that, vehicles could be killed on glancing hits and on a 4+ on pen's, cover was much less sparse, then yeah Gets Hot! made sense. With the massive expansion in weapons, increased resilience of targets and increase importance of other weapons, Gets Hot! no longer makes sense as a balance mechanism. A guardsmen with a Rapid firing plasma gun stands a nearly 1 in 4 chance of killing himself, meaning a platoon command squad is losing a guy every time they shoot on average, hence why you almost never see such units equipped that way.

A simple quick fix for the Plasma might be that you should only need too role 1dice for the "gets hot" before you roll to hit with rapid fire 2shoot.
This will make the gun a little safer.
Or that you first roll one dice and if its not a 1 that shoot hits, then you roll the second. Since if the first shoot goes of and the second "gets hot" the first should still hit.