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Durza wrote:No, now you're thinking of DA

No, the DA are merely pricks with weird ideas on target priorities and secrecy.

For example, the Iron Warriors got mad because they were constantly stuck on siege duty-- and then when they betrayed? They were stuck in some more siege duty. So why didn't they speak up against this siege duty which was supposedly the reason they supposedly were so tired of?

Because they were either idiots or pussies.

No, they got glory for their sieges when they turned, instead of being the single squad in an army that organised the entire siege, and then the other Legion took credit for the victory because there was more of them. They wanted some recognition.

Melissia wrote:No, the DA are merely pricks with weird ideas on target priorities and secrecy.

For example, the Iron Warriors got mad because they were constantly stuck on siege duty-- and then when they betrayed? They were stuck in some more siege duty. So why didn't they speak up against this siege duty which was supposedly the reason they supposedly were so tired of?

Because they were either idiots or pussies.

That's not actually why they turned.

They turned because they felt they didn't get nearly as much credit for their work as they should have, other Legions getting all the glory when the Iron Warriors worked just as hard. Not to mention their Legion was constantly split and fractured, having tiny deployments of IRon Warriors all across the Imperium, such as a mere ten Iron Warriors made to garrison 130,000,000 disgruntled humans alone. Even Perturabo, a Primarch, was not given as much recognition as his brothers for their victories. Oh, and they were always kept in constant action, constant siege duty, never given leave, never allowed rest or reorganisation of their forces.

It's a bit more complicated than "constantly stuck on siege duty."

the Emperor's Children are extremely vile and sick

awww, thanks ^^

I'd say chaos would win in a head to head battle but if Deldar got the jump on them then they'd stand a better chance. in terms of rules however there would be very little of the chaos marines left

I wouldn't say that DE do the things they do because they want to.
Remember - They were driven to torture and maim because if they don't, then slaanesh will consume their souls.
And that is possibly worse than anything that an DE could do to you.

Granted, they enjoy it, but why wouldn't they? It's the only thing that's keeping their race alive.

That said, they are still pretty fething twisted.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:I wouldn't say that DE do the things they do because they want to.
Remember - They were driven to torture and maim because if they don't, then slaanesh will consume their souls.
And that is possibly worse than anything that an DE could do to you.

Granted, they enjoy it, but why wouldn't they? It's the only thing that's keeping their race alive.

That said, they are still pretty fething twisted.

But you have to remember, their depravity, their sick blood orgies, is what spawned Slaanesh in the first place.

After this happened, they could have tried to rejoin the Craftworld Eldar, who would, despite what happened in the past, be fools to pass up gaining a formidable stronghold in the Webway, along with increasing their numbers substantially.

The Dark Eldar didn't give a damn about what they caused, and went right back to their vile depravities.

Void__Dragon wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:I wouldn't say that DE do the things they do because they want to.
Remember - They were driven to torture and maim because if they don't, then slaanesh will consume their souls.
And that is possibly worse than anything that an DE could do to you.

Granted, they enjoy it, but why wouldn't they? It's the only thing that's keeping their race alive.

That said, they are still pretty fething twisted.

But you have to remember, their depravity, their sick blood orgies, is what spawned Slaanesh in the first place.

After this happened, they could have tried to rejoin the Craftworld Eldar, who would, despite what happened in the past, be fools to pass up gaining a formidable stronghold in the Webway, along with increasing their numbers substantially.

The Dark Eldar didn't give a damn about what they caused, and went right back to their vile depravities.

Weren't most of the DE stuck in the Webway though, unable to get on the craftworlds? Or was that the exodus...

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Weren't most of the DE stuck in the Webway though, unable to get on the craftworlds? Or was that the exodus...

They can leave whenever they want. They chose to ignore where their acts were leading them to.

Beyond that, they didn't even suffer from Slaanesh's birth as much as other Eldar did, the Webway protecting their souls from the immediate destruction.

So they proceeded to continue having blood orgies.

Void__Dragon wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Weren't most of the DE stuck in the Webway though, unable to get on the craftworlds? Or was that the exodus...

They can leave whenever they want. They chose to ignore where their acts were leading them to.

Beyond that, they didn't even suffer from Slaanesh's birth as much as other Eldar did, the Webway protecting their souls from the immediate destruction.

So they proceeded to continue having blood orgies.

Wow...those... .

I'd most definitly say the Dark Eldar are the more evil. They conciously make a choice to do what they do, and have entire torture gardens full of victims. The Chaos Marines are gifted amateurs comparitivly. But as for power... by making it a stand up fight you take away the DE's main advantage. It skews it in the CSM's favor dramaticially.

Melissia wrote: CSMs are pansy little daddy's boys who are upset their daddy didn't get them nice things for Christmas.

Daddy would have had they waited until Christmas, but lil' Horus decided he was going to listen to what Strangers said about Daddy being a Cheapskate and throw a Galactic Temper Tantrum.

Actually, Fulgrim and Magnus are the only traitor primarchs I could see having any place in the Emperor's planned Imperium. Angron was a lunatic, what purpose could he serve for a peaceful humanity? Horus was designed to be a general, Mortarion was only good for poisons, Lorgar believed in religion, Night Haunter was an absolutist who couldn't see good in humanity any more. Pertuabo wanted glory which was constantly denied to him, an Imperium at peace wouldn't have much chance for that. Maybe Alpharius could have been the leader of the Inquisition (maybe he is...) but the Emperor wanted a utopia with no daemons.

No chaos does not particularly mean no war. The Emperor must have been aware of other threats (Void Dragon) to man other than just chaos.

Dark Eldar are evil. They enjoy being evil even though they can choose to become pirate Eldar, Exodite Eldar or Craftworld Eldar but they choose to remain as they are and they love being that way. Chaos is also evil and is right behind them. This is how I see things.

Lightcavalier wrote:
In terms of applying a moral viewpoint to the game...all of the factions are despicable. Every faction is filled with examples of morally reprehensible behaviour, backed up with weak justifications and a great deal of rationalization.

Let me ask this question. What right does a person who will only live a mere hundred years, lives in safety, not in danger from abominations and has done nothing truly important in galactic scale have to judge a race that ruled the stars for millions of years and are in danger of having there souls be eternally tortured by an evil sex god? A race that has suffered much in its fight for survival and has this happening to its civilians:

“Call them what you will—Krell, Psyrens or Enslavers. Just one
witch, unsanctioned, caused the destruction of Hive Skorpios when
one of those things used her brain as a gateway to this world. Within
three days the entire hive’s population was reduced to drooling mindslaves.
Within three weeks an entire continent was at war. And all
because the governor thought his family should be exempt from the
psyker cull and refused to give his daughter to the Black Ships.”

–Inquisitor Mallen, Ordo Xenos

If one can survive what the 40k races have survived and still have their hands clean without even an ounce of blood on them, then that person has the right to judge them. Otherwise its nothing but one spouting armchair moral bullcrap.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:Dark Eldar are evil. They enjoy being evil even though they can choose to become pirate Eldar, Exodite Eldar or Craftworld Eldar but they choose to remain as they are and they love being that way. Chaos is also evil and is right behind them. This is how I see things.

Lightcavalier wrote:
In terms of applying a moral viewpoint to the game...all of the factions are despicable. Every faction is filled with examples of morally reprehensible behaviour, backed up with weak justifications and a great deal of rationalization.

Let me ask this question. What right does a person who will only live a mere hundred years, lives in safety, not in danger from abominations and has done nothing truly important in galactic scale have to judge a race that ruled the stars for millions of years and are in danger of having there souls be eternally tortured by an evil sex god? A race that has suffered much in its fight for survival and has this happening to its civilians:

“Call them what you will—Krell, Psyrens or Enslavers. Just one
witch, unsanctioned, caused the destruction of Hive Skorpios when
one of those things used her brain as a gateway to this world. Within
three days the entire hive’s population was reduced to drooling mindslaves.
Within three weeks an entire continent was at war. And all
because the governor thought his family should be exempt from the
psyker cull and refused to give his daughter to the Black Ships.”

–Inquisitor Mallen, Ordo Xenos

If one can survive what the 40k races have survived and still have their hands clean without even an ounce of blood on them, then that person has the right to judge them. Otherwise its nothing but one spouting armchair moral bullcrap.

+1.

The Tau are pretty Good, all things considered. Lots of people hate them for it too. Haha.

Yes, there is the whole "mind control" thing, but the mind control just makes them want to do whatever they do. They could still not do what they were being told they wanted to do, but they are being told to want to do the right thing, so they don't not do it.

That was really convoluted, but the Tau are, on the whole, good. Trust me, it is for the Greater Good.

CpatTom wrote:The Tau are pretty Good, all things considered.

No, they are not. Sure, they're a little less keen on genociding every species, but they still will commit genocide on intelligent species, and they are an aggressive expansionist power keen on enslaving everyone under the "Greater Good". Not to mention they are incredibly racist, whereas the Imperium has never been (to my knowledge) presented as such.

Um... how have you never seen the Imperium presented as racist? It's one of their defining qualities. At least the Tau will work with those not of their species.

Durza wrote:Um... how have you never seen the Imperium presented as racist? It's one of their defining qualities. At least the Tau will work with those not of their species.

The Imperium is speciesist. That's entirely different. I'm not sure, but I think abhumans are a different subspecies?

There are various examples of racism in the Imperium. One would be the Volpone's initial attitude to the Tanith.

Abhumans are humans that have been isolated long enough to adapt to their planet, becoming bigger, smaller or less smart... They're still essentially human.

Durza wrote:There are various examples of racism in the Imperium. One would be the Volpone's initial attitude to the Tanith.

Meh. Not instituionalised by the Imperium.

Abhumans are humans that have been isolated long enough to adapt to their planet, becoming bigger, smaller or less smart... They're still essentially human.

Human, yes, but not Homo Sapiens Sapiens, surely?

Durza wrote:There are various examples of racism in the Imperium. One would be the Volpone's initial attitude to the Tanith.

This example is useless. Seeing as its a local issue that has nothing to do with the Imperium.

Next the Imperium is just like the Eldar, they both are perfectly willing to work with other races temporarily until they no longer need you and then you die.

So you want an example where the entire Imperium looks down on one race of humans in particular?

The Interex are one such non-Imperial human faction that ceased to exist, their wonders now naught but dust, for their failure to worship the God-Emperor.

However, I'm not sure how you can call the Tau "racist" and then claim that the Imperium is not racist, but specist.

Durza wrote:There are various examples of racism in the Imperium. One would be the Volpone's initial attitude to the Tanith.

Abhumans are humans that have been isolated long enough to adapt to their planet, becoming bigger, smaller or less smart... They're still essentially human.

Yes, and that makes them a Subspecies. They are still human, but not Homo Sapiens Sapiens.

Psienesis wrote:The Interex are one such non-Imperial human faction that ceased to exist, their wonders now naught but dust, for their failure to worship the God-Emperor.

The Interex were wiped out during the time of the Horus Heresy. Nobody was openly worshiping the Emperor nor killing anyone over that. They were wiped out cause they attacked Horus when they thought he had tricked them via talking with them and had others steal a daemon Chaos blade they kept in a museum which was false. Infact they quickly jumped to conclusions without evidence which is a very Inquisition thing to do. They were killed by the Luna wolves.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Durza wrote:There are various examples of racism in the Imperium. One would be the Volpone's initial attitude to the Tanith.

Abhumans are humans that have been isolated long enough to adapt to their planet, becoming bigger, smaller or less smart... They're still essentially human.

Yes, and that makes them a Subspecies. They are still human, but not Homo Sapiens Sapiens.

Unless they can't still breed with normal humans, they're still Sapiens Sapiens.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:No, they are not. Sure, they're a little less keen on genociding every species, but they still will commit genocide on intelligent species, and they are an aggressive expansionist power keen on enslaving everyone under the "Greater Good". Not to mention they are incredibly racist, whereas the Imperium has never been (to my knowledge) presented as such.

I believe the xenophobia/racism issue has been covered by others, but I fail to see the Tau as racist. They have a caste system, yes, but they want to do what each of their caste's is good at (it may or may not be caused by pheremones, but that is another point). The human's they "enslave" do not have to give up their religions, only pledge to fight for the Greater Good first and foremost, the governmental system that allows them the right to continue existing without having to be sacrificed to a psychic toilet. Expansionist, yes, the mere existence of beliefs other than there own (read God-Emperor) has created the Chaos Gods, a threat quite capable of extinguishing the Greater Good.

But Wait! They let people continue to worship the emperor. Yes, this is true, but generations will past, and the emperor worship will be replaced with greater good worship. It would be inevitable.

Should a peaceful arrangement not be available, they will defend themselves. They seek peaceful coexistence with others: That is Commie Hippy Goodness at its very finest.

I assume you will point to Brightsword as an example of that time when the Tau went all genocidal rage on people. (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/O%27var#.To4m8JuIk8k) He was called back from duty, tried, relieved of command, and assassinated by the water caste in order to avoid conflict with the Imperium.

IIRC, the water caste member helping the team that assassinated him was actually planning to kill them instead to show the Imperium they weren't all powerful.

Didnt know that, haha. Wouldn't surprise me. Water Caste are all skimmer salesmen and politicians.