40k 'Wild West Showdown' 2000-point Tournament on 10/8 at Game Empire in Pasadena!

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**deamonwithin**

this is the only time i ever had an issue with my army with players in a tourney i find it funny that the ones who complained where the ones talking trash before hand how im a brave man to play daemons and my army had alot of the same so fiends all look the same painted the same check no comfusing hounds where real models check no comfusing souldgriders bigger than everything check lol no comfusion

and i remindem so many times threw movement or when they where about to shoot i said are sure there fiedns or whatever and the responce i got was some sort of snobby remark like i dont care cause i have the mentally that ima table this daemon player lol and well it didnt happen

i even went up agaist that ork player with the turn over tiny battle wangons and he im sure was the one who complained even tho his army was obsbiously playing to the advantage of small battle wagons he only complained after i beat him

so to me it just feels like there where some sore losers who went to win and didnt like that a solid daemon player beat them when it takes about a min to describe my army its obiously obvious once i describe it but people dont seem to care just move foward like they gonna win some people dont even know the daemon line up so it wouldnt even matter what i use they wouldnt know the difference

i would gladly lose ten min or more off my turn to give to my opponet if it was issue of time for explainning im a fair guy i went to have fun choice a army thats fun made a army that was fun but cause some sore loser whined my army is in queastion no body would even be saying anything if i indeed lost all my games lol

not taking anything from organizer he was a fun and fair judege was doing a great job going around making sure everthing was running great and the store is awsome and huge lol so like i said i still had a great time and i still would have had a great time if i had lost with my theme custom daemons army

**Brothererekose**

disdainful wrote:2 Eldar
3 Space Wolves
1 Deathwing
3 Imperial Guard
1 Orks
2 Grey Knight
2 Blood Angels
1 Chaos Daemons
1 Tyranids

*heavy sigh* Unable to attend and bring my DE. Lookin' forward to next one in November.

**OverwatchCNC**

disdainful wrote:Overall I think it was a great day. Daemons took the top spot, Deathwing took the Renaissance man for most Battle Points and Painting score combined, and a beautifully painted Eldar army took the painting award. For our first try at a different format, I'd say it went pretty well. Smooth games, solid results, no one timed out, and we all got to go home at a reasonable hour!

mortetvie wrote:Dang, I think my Eldar would have done quite well, shame I couldn't end up going. Grats to everyone who played!

If you had made it, that would have been three Eldar players! I think that would have been more Eldar than I've seen all year!

azgrim wrote:Some random demon player with a fully "converted " paper mache army got first place .Hopefully he sent the price money on real models to replace the tau/ork/eldar/nid models in the army.

I know a few people were a little miffed at the very... 'chaotic' look of that army. And I know that the people who played against it said that they were confused at some point about what was what during the game.

It's a fine line to tread for a TO; you want to include as many people as possible, but when you see something that, while clearly made up of a majority of GW models and which likely took quite a while to actually convert (since we all know kit-bash scratch-builds are often exceptionally time consuming), is very difficult to decipher visually, it's a rough spot. There's a very valid argument that an army that is very heavy on the converting and kit-bashing is breaking WYSIWYG and should not be allowed in tournaments where the bulk of the field is made up of models that accurately represent their codex selections.

There's a variety of questions in this little minefield, and I've been tossing a few of them around for a while now. How much is too much? What allowance, if any, should be made for exceptional conversion work, which forces one to make a value judgment of the aesthetic 'quality' of someone else's work?

And there's a lot of elements to consider. A heavily converted army creates a time issue where the explanation of what this-or-that bizarre scratch build is actually supposed to be eats up precious minutes in a competitive, timed environment. Furthermore, is a player really responsible for having to remember what a whole armies' worth of 'counts-as' represents? Finally, there's the issue of modeling for advantage. Taking two examples from yesterday, would anyone argue that a silly huge conversion of a Soul Grinder that was probably at least twice a tall and wide as the normal model is modeling for advantage? Unlikely. But what about low-profile Devilfish, off the flight stand, turned upside down, and Ork-ified into a Battlewagon? Maybe. In the age of true LOS, it's definitely harder to model for advantage, but it's still something that can come up.

I know, I know... tl;dr. The heart of the matter is, how strict does one need to be about questionable conversions and counts-as models? I'll definitely be adding at least a pre-approval requirement for suspect stuff, and possibly a requirement to have some portion of the correct models available in case an opponent isn't comfortable having to deal with what they consider to be too far beyond the pale. It is definitely a significant imposition to expect your opponent to keep track of an armload of counts-as, but GW is a hobby, at heart, so strict sanctions on someone who's more of a hobbyist and less of a painter or player get thorny as well.

-Dis.

While I wussed out early with a migraine I didn't get to see the last round but I wanted to weigh in on the "counts as" issue. The army was, as the player readily admits, heavily converted. And while it may take the player a few minutes to describe what is what in the army, even if color coded as this was, it would still create undue stress on the opponent to remember what everything is. For example, are the Soul Grinders actually armed with the right cannons and CCW or counts as cannons and counts as CCW? When this has come up before, or against people on Tuesday nights who are proxying heavily, I use sticky notes. I carry sticky notes in my bag and write what a model/unit is and what it is armed with on the sticky note and attach it to the model. If my opponent were to protest, which hasn't happened yet, I would call the judge over. I have no problem with someone converting counts as armies, but I am not obligated to memorize all your counts as models. It is easy for the converter to describe what is what because they MADE the models, I didn't and more than likely this is the first time I have seen it.

The WYSIWYG rule is there for a reason, it keeps players honest with what a model/unit is armed with, what a transport contains, what weapons a tank has etc. Those of you who know me know I go out of my way to make sure my army is completely WYSIWYG for tournaments, and casual play for the most part, so I expect the same in return. In the case of a full "counts as" army the sticky notes come out, not because I disapprove but because I am not going to try to, nor should I have to, memorize your army in 10 minutes.

**deamonwithin**

its no harder then a player needing to remeber what units are where inside a tank lol my army had everything what you see is what you get i do the same thing i make sure i have everything as it suppose to be but my army was just converted thats all i mean dude am i really getting it for being unique ? other player where using proxies and missing stuff and all sorts of things ,do you see me complaining about it? i just ask ok whats that when im about to kill it if im not sure i ask again ,never an issue

like my first opponent was using eldar he didnt have any of the right weapons on his vehicles did i complain? nope i just asked ok what is what i even helped the guy out .he told me he had a great time and learned from me even tho i tabled him by turn 2

my second opponent was a ork player that had upside down freaking tau tanks that counted as battlewagons lol he had five and some nobs didnt even have power claws again did i complain? nope just asked him whats what and where his battle wagon even had no guns on some of his battle wagons

and my last opponent was a leafblower guard player whos army was not painted not even primed flamer on his tanks but didnt have flamers did i complain ? nope

my army was painted and converted with what you see is what you get but yet theres a proplem lol?
i am not obligated to remeber proxies and missing gear and all sorts of other stuff yet i do but i dont find it a big deal

this whole it a stress to remeber what my only two vehicles in the game are and what all those tail looking things that have the same looking tail as actual fiends are and because of that i most complain is silly to me but i guess its cause to me it dont matter what my opponent puts on the other side of the table ima have fun or try to have fun lol because its a game and if i lose im not going to make excuses that it was cause his soulgrider dont look like grider it looks like defiler oh god i cant remeber that lol

**mandyfelix16**

im pretty sure that was the army lists for. for the people to see what they have and what they play. i was there an most people didnt want to see his list and didnt care to see it. so thats their fault. besides you win or you lose its only a game relax its about the fun and the practice. most of you guys are are 25 and older so act like ur age and Stop being a sore loser.

**Grimgob**

I wasnt there but would like to say as an objective observer some people are visual learners. I myself hate army builder and have a hard time wth the format. Add that to seeing a mismatch army and not an army alot of people play I could see how it would be hard for some people (myself included). Hulksmash has a xompletly counts as converted deamon army thats nicely converted and nicley painted. He freely admits people have a hard time playing against it and doesnt play it at tournys alot for that reason. Not everyone has to get your vision, thems the breaks.

**OverwatchCNC**

deamonwithin wrote:its no harder then a player needing to remeber what units are where inside a tank lol my army had everything what you see is what you get i do the same thing i make sure i have everything as it suppose to be but my army was just converted thats all i mean dude am i really getting it for being unique ? other player where using proxies and missing stuff and all sorts of things ,do you see me complaining about it? i just ask ok whats that when im about to kill it if im not sure i ask again ,never an issue

like my first opponent was using eldar he didnt have any of the right weapons on his vehicles did i complain? nope i just asked ok what is what i even helped the guy out .he told me he had a great time and learned from me even tho i tabled him by turn 2

my second opponent was a ork player that had upside down freaking tau tanks that counted as battlewagons lol he had five and some nobs didnt even have power claws again did i complain? nope just asked him whats what and where his battle wagon even had no guns on some of his battle wagons

and my last opponent was a leafblower guard player whos army was not painted not even primed flamer on his tanks but didnt have flamers did i complain ? nope

my army was painted and converted with what you see is what you get but yet theres a proplem lol?
i am not obligated to remeber proxies and missing gear and all sorts of other stuff yet i do but i dont find it a big deal

this whole it a stress to remeber what my only two vehicles in the game are and what all those tail looking things that have the same looking tail as actual fiends are and because of that i most complain is silly to me but i guess its cause to me it dont matter what my opponent puts on the other side of the table ima have fun or try to have fun lol because its a game and if i lose im not going to make excuses that it was cause his soulgrider dont look like grider it looks like defiler oh god i cant remeber that lol

Red: You converted them to be WYSIWYG to your standards. As the modeler you know what each weapon stands for in the Daemon Codex. Had you used the actual weapons from the Soul Grinder kit on your Carnifex and Wraithlord hull then it would be less confusing. As it is the items in red are easily fixed by using post it notes, so yes people shouldn't complain as much they should find a solution. However you can't claim the army is WYSIWYG when it doesn't match what is readily available in the codex for visual reference by the entire gaming community.

Green: That is your personal response to those situations. Just because you choose not to make a big deal about proxies and counts as doesn't mean other people have to be as lax. I rarely make a big deal about WYSIWYG, my "post it note" policy is rarely used, but I still insure my entire army is 100% WYSIWYG according to the codex I am playing, any conversions are easily identified for what they are. But that is my choice. It is your choice to heavily convert an army which is great, I think you have the right to do that and I encourage you to do so, but you can't expect everyone to accept it.

I didn't play you, I don't know you personally, nor did I watch any of your matches; so I don't have any personal bias here. I simply find it difficult to understand your surprise at the reaction of some of your opponents. It really isn't as simple as having an army list, which your opponents should have taken and used, and explaining the units. Heavily converted armies often require additional aids for marking units, it really is not as simple as what is in a particular transport.

Edit for clarification: I also take issue with tanks that aren't properly armed whether they are conversions or the actual GW model. I would have applied my post it note policy to all the issues highlighted in green.

mandyfelix16 wrote:im pretty sure that was the army lists for. for the people to see what they have and what they play. i was there an most people didnt want to see his list and didnt care to see it. so thats their fault. besides you win or you lose its only a game relax its about the fun and the practice. most of you guys are are 25 and older so act like ur age and Stop being a sore loser.

People definitely should take his list from him if offered. But with a heavily converted army that doesn't match the codex pictures the list will be of little help if it isn't also accompanied by pictures of his converted models. Let's also try and keep this civil, no one has made personal attacks on daemonwithin so let's not make personal attacks on others, some of whom are not members of Dakka and cannot defend themselves.

**disdainful**

For purposes of this thread being about our last tournament, I think the horse is dead.

For my sake, I'll be speaking with my locals and regulars in the store over the next few weeks to find out what they'd like to see as far as a policy on heavily converted / counts-as models and armies. Based on that I'll be making a decision which will be represented in the tournament guidelines that I'll post for the next tournament in November.

As for the larger issue that has come up, I think it would be better served by its own thread either here in Tournament Discussions or even in General Discussion. And with that in mind, before my little ol' tournament thread goes even further off-topic and ends up dead anyway, I'd like one of our fine Moderators to put this one to bed and lock it. Thanks!

-Dis.

**frenrik**

Any pictures?

I haven't seen a new tournament report on your blog in ages.

**Darrian13**

I haven't seen Frenrik in ages.

**Blackmoor**

I haven't seen you in ages.

I was thinking about going to this because it was on a holiday weekend and it would have been easy money for me, but I am coming to town on Nov 5th for Reece's tournament.

**Darrian13**

Too bad you did not make it. I will not be able to attend Reece's tournament. I can't ask my wife to watch the baby for 2 days solid, at least not for a few more months.

**frenrik**

It was an Old Republic beta weekend :(