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My girlfriend's primary army is dwarfs, so I've played against them a lot.

I think the only change I'd make to the dwarfs is either make the copter able to march and shoot, or trim its point cost a little.

There are so many reasons why the dwarfs kick serious A. Slow movement is the only detractor, and even that is a very small detriment when compared to their deployment options.

I think stubborn across the board would be far too powerful for them. They're already a terror.

Saw a few people comparing dwarfs lack of a blanket rule to that of HE's. First, HE's are broken in the wrong way, with SoA and Phoenix. On the other hand, there are so many good counters to the "state approved" HE list, and the dwarfs can field almost all of them.

DukeRustfield wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:You're off on the cost of the savages.
He's dumping 475 points into the unit, and another 220 or more for the lord with the shrunken head.

Sounds like the problem is your throwing a 350 point unit at a 700 point unit.

^this. He's basically using a horde of Specials +hero + items vs. your horde of vanilla Core. I should hope you'd lose.

I'm no dorf expert, or even an orc expert, but I'm sure others got a lot of great suggestions. Moar points, is probably a good start. Not a rewriting of the rules so your vastly out-matched forces can beat him.

The problem being is that there is no real counter to this combo for dwarves. There is no unit that can stand and win against this unit in kills. You have to try and hold it up. With a pretty massive points sink. Otherwise this unit (the savages) doesn't just beat your Core (Which Savage Bigguns ALSO are, btw) it can single handedly defeat every single unit in your army. I know this, because it's happened. Regularly.

Matt's idea, though good, precludes the use of other things i'd rather take and is pretty damned heavy handed in the characters department. We're talking 4 characters and a huge block of troops just to stop one unit and one character. Likely what I would do instead is just take a forlorn hope unit of 10 nekkid dwarves, rush them forward, angle them properly, and let him slaughter the dwarves and force an unfavorable overrun. The real issue is just not knowing what to do with those sad mooks in any other game if I stuck them in an all comers list.

Nagashek wrote:

DukeRustfield wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:You're off on the cost of the savages.
He's dumping 475 points into the unit, and another 220 or more for the lord with the shrunken head.

Sounds like the problem is your throwing a 350 point unit at a 700 point unit.

^this. He's basically using a horde of Specials +hero + items vs. your horde of vanilla Core. I should hope you'd lose.

I'm no dorf expert, or even an orc expert, but I'm sure others got a lot of great suggestions. Moar points, is probably a good start. Not a rewriting of the rules so your vastly out-matched forces can beat him.

The problem being is that there is no real counter to this combo for dwarves. There is no unit that can stand and win against this unit in kills. You have to try and hold it up. With a pretty massive points sink. Otherwise this unit (the savages) doesn't just beat your Core (Which Savage Bigguns ALSO are, btw) it can single handedly defeat every single unit in your army. I know this, because it's happened. Regularly.

Matt's idea, though good, precludes the use of other things i'd rather take and is pretty damned heavy handed in the characters department. We're talking 4 characters and a huge block of troops just to stop one unit and one character. Likely what I would do instead is just take a forlorn hope unit of 10 nekkid dwarves, rush them forward, angle them properly, and let him slaughter the dwarves and force an unfavorable overrun. The real issue is just not knowing what to do with those sad mooks in any other game if I stuck them in an all comers list.

1) Am I missing something? Savage orc big 'uns with shrunken head vs. IRONBREAKERS horde battle?
He gets 30 attacks. 15 will hit. 7.5 will wound. You'll save 3.75 (gromril armor + shield - 1 for S4). = 3.75 wounds.
You get 20 attacks. 13.3 will hit. 6.7 will wound. Hell save 2.2 (5+ WS) = 4.5 wounds.

I'm discounting his lord, because I didn't account for any lord or hero you might have. Even if you don't want to take the super-unit led by 4 thanes decked out... you should be able to field a Lord/Hero in that unit that's going to make up for whatever excess wounds his lord is going to cause. So... what am I missing? In this instance he just lost frenzy and 1/3 of his attacks for the next round. Should be pretty easy to break from there - especially if you have a flank set up for his nasty unit's charge.

2) Not to incite a riot, but you said "there's no counter" after someone said "problem is you're sending 350 points up against 700".

3) Again, might sound dickish but it's not intended that way: the front-row hero anvil is a treasured tactic in WHFB 8e. If you're having trouble keeping your anvil unit alive, you may want to look into making a part of your repertoire.

4) You should be causing unfavorable overruns anyway.

5) Savage Orc/SOBU + shrunken head hero/lord is a very common and very orky unit. Far from over-powered, as you can see in point 1.

Hope this helps!

1) A Savage orc Biggun Horde gets 50 attacks. The IB get 30. You are also missing the strength bonus of the Savages in the first turn, which puts them at S5. You are also missing the Dwarf Hate for Greenskins in your math. The Savages get just over 9 kills (9 1/3 I think) and the IB get 8 kills. So yes. Savages win.

If you put the IB in a 5 wide formation, the Savages get 30 attacks (not including characters or champ) the IB 10 (ditto.) The Savages kill 5, the IB just under 3. So you actually lose more by CR in a Bus than you do if you go horde.

2) The counter offered requires a considerable investment in Heros to counter a Core troop. I'm sorry if I discount any system that requires me to Hero Hammer my way through something that the other guy gets to take as common. Especially if you consider the other guy goes nuts on characters too, well, that's an arm's race dwarves won't win.

3) That's great, but also seques into a discussion of "What's wrong with 8th ed." And that tactic orks only until he takes the Sword of Anti Heros and destroys nearly 2 ranks of dwarves for my troubles.

4) I do my best, but there are often Fanatic problems.

5) Already dealt with.

None of this deals with the original topic of this thread, which was purely about stubborn. My issues with Orcs are solely with the guy who plays them rolling 5+ ward saves like they were 3+ and my warmachines regularly scattering off or wounding far below average, while his Fanatics hit every time with 5-6 hits each and the Mangler Squig moving on average 13-16 inches each turn. It's all about luck that defies statistics, than anything.

I merely wanted to ask if anyone thought Stubborn was as powerful as Hatred, and clearly many of you feel it is moreso.

EDITED WITH RED ZEKE'S CORRECTIONS:


2) Wasn't talking about the hero-led unit. I was talking about the fact that sending a 350 point unit against a 700 point unit is not a counter.

3) The hero-led unit is a tactic. I personally don't use it. I've encountered a few and have always gone out of my way to redirect them into uselessness (or have tried to). --- I love 8e. If my opponent wants to spend 25% of his points just to have a heavily armored front row of one unit, it's very fine by me. I would hardly classify it as something that's wrong with 8e, but that's subjective.

4) Goblin Wolf Riders and goblin wolf chariots = great redirectors. 18" on the march, you sacrifice 50 points to make a unit uncharging for a turn (maybe 2 with the chariot)


All math rounded to 1st decimal:
vs. Ironbreakers
Savage Orc Bigguns with Spears or AHW = 50 attacks, 25 hit, 16.7 wound, 11.1 get through armor, 1.9 parry saved = 9.2 wounds.


Ironbreakers attack back = 30 attacks, 20 hit, 10 wound, 3.3 parry saved = 6.7 wounds.

It sucks that you're having traditionally bad rolls against this unit, and your opponent is saving crazy. I know the feeling from both sides. Never had a scraplauncher last past turn 3, or able to fire past turn two.

If anything, the oooooold tactic hammer & anvil might suit you here. If you make your Ironbreakers 5-wide he only gets 35 attacks against them (less damage) and you can hammer the flank and send him runnin'. Psychologically he probably thinks his savage boyz are a little tougher than they actually are, so wait for him to overextend them and smack 'em like they should be.

-On Topic-
Yes - stubborn as a blanket-wide army rule is way too OP. The dwarfs have the highest leadership in the game by a nice margin, add stubborn (and a nearby BSB) and they would be nigh unbreakable. I think the Ld 9s and 10s are already playing to the fluff of dwarfs being a very resolute and determined race.

Warboss Fugnutz wrote:1) I don't think the Savage Orcs can get 50 attacks at S5. I forgot the choppas for the +1 Strength, but the only way they could get 50 attacks is with spears, and that would not give them the +1S. So it's 50 at s4, or 40 at s5.

Still not right. A horde of savages with two weapons can get to 50. Front rank has three attacks per model (Frenzy & extra weapon) and two ranks of supporters get to swing too. Plus, the choppa rule applies to all Orc weapons in the latest book so long as the *model* has the choppa rule. So this could work with spears to, though the extra weapon is a more consistent, efficient way to do so.

Red_Zeke wrote:

Warboss Fugnutz wrote:1) I don't think the Savage Orcs can get 50 attacks at S5. I forgot the choppas for the +1 Strength, but the only way they could get 50 attacks is with spears, and that would not give them the +1S. So it's 50 at s4, or 40 at s5.

Still not right. A horde of savages with two weapons can get to 50. Front rank has three attacks per model (Frenzy & extra weapon) and two ranks of supporters get to swing too. Plus, the choppa rule applies to all Orc weapons in the latest book so long as the *model* has the choppa rule. So this could work with spears to, though the extra weapon is a more consistent, efficient way to do so.

Ah - thanks! That's what I was asking with "what am I missing?" - it wasn't rhetorical! haha

Okay folks, let's set some things straight here:

- It's clear. The consensus is that army-wide Stubborn on Dwarfs would be too good.

@Nagashek: I think the problem here isn't entirely Dwarfs; it's 8th ed's tendency toward super-awesome Deathstar units. Though the problem isn't entirely not Dwarfs, either.

@Sebster: I agree. Completely.

Dwars are sort of middle-of-the-road army. Not a Horde army, not an elite army. And I like that. But I don't think it need be the case. Dwarfs are amazing warriors and a dwindling race, just like their Elven rivals. I think a more elite army take would fit. Bigger and Badder versions of Hammerers, Slayers, and Miners seem like a good direction to go in.
Right now, Dwarfs are "solid". Nothing's bad. Nothing's amazing. Everything is decent. They take no chances. I love the idea, but it leaves them vulnerable to a lucky roll or two with armies that have those high Risk/Reward options.

Beyond that, I think that the Dwarf's lack of magic ability is really hurting them in regard to Nagashek's problem and ones like it. Deathstars fear The Big Spells. Dwarfs don't have those, ever. So they need to rely on their war machines, which are a poor substitute in this case.
Furthermore, the Dwarf's antimagic is far from sure, since two 6's can still decimate a unit, thanks again to The Big Spells.

In short: Deathstars need more (though less efficient) counters, and I do think that Dwarfs need a complete revamping.