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2011/10/17 18:26:53
Subject: The economic damage of harsh immigration laws
LordofHats wrote:
In construction ...... is the work they're doing 'skilled?'
Absolutely. Granted, a lot of the skills are easily learned, but that makes them no less a skill set. At the very least construction workers need to know how to... construct... correctly. Building codes govern everything nowadays, from the exact concrete mixture for floors and walls, to what type of fasteners may be used on what type of roofing, to exactly how you assemble the framework of the walls. Simply needing this knowledge as it pertains to your particular job makes these 'skilled labor positions'. Then there's the knowledge and skillsets needed to conform to all these rules and regulations while still being efficient and productive.
I would happily work next to these gentlemen ( as I do less happily now) if they were to get work visas, or at least begin/continue the process of naturalization. The vast majority of them are just human beings trying the best they can (just like the rest of us), but the sad truth is they're a large part of the reason why my ( and their) backbreaking labor earns less than it costs to provide.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
biccat wrote:
curtis wrote:Also more seriously how don't you have a problem with people actually working not being able to have a living wage?
What is a living wage?
A wage that will allow you to pay your (and your family's if applicable) bills.
So what would DOnald Trump's living wage be?
Touche. I'm sure his wage is up to the task, unlike mine. I'm sure he deserves it too. As I said previously, I don't have all (or possibly any) of the answers, but every person working legally in this country deserves to be able to support themselves on a day's wage. I'm not saying that minimum wage should cover food and bills and every luxury one could want (TV, internet, Warhammer, ETC.), but at least food and necessary bills.
Mannahnin wrote:A lot of folks online (and in emails in other parts of life) use pretty mangled English. The idea is that it takes extra effort and time to write properly, and they’d rather save the time. If you can still be understood, what’s the harm? While most of the time a sloppy post CAN be understood, the use of proper grammar, punctuation, and spelling is generally seen as respectable and desirable on most forums. It demonstrates an effort made to be understood, and to make your post an easy and pleasant read. By making this effort, you can often elicit more positive responses from the community, and instantly mark yourself as someone worth talking to.
insaniak wrote: Every time someone threatens violence over the internet as a result of someone's hypothetical actions at the gaming table, the earth shakes infinitisemally in its orbit as millions of eyeballs behind millions of monitors all roll simultaneously.
2011/10/17 18:26:56
Subject: The economic damage of harsh immigration laws
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2011/10/17 18:28:01
Subject: The economic damage of harsh immigration laws
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2011/10/17 18:32:12
Subject: The economic damage of harsh immigration laws
I usually stay out of these threads due to a large amount of trolling from a few users. But this one really got me going! While the articles author has a clear opinion on the subject there is much truth to it. While Alabama has the right to its law I think it goes to far. The issue of work not getting done is really unrelated and should have no bearing on the law. The agriculture industry sees many illegals due to the small amount of pay they offer (getting paid piecework, .05 cents a cucumber or in forestry .15 cents a tree planted) These companies either need to comply with the law and lose a little money to pay workers properly or just not harvest as the article states. Don't want illegal immigrants? Don't foster a situation that promotes their cheap labor, the issue must be fixed at that level. Fix the problem not the symptoms.
My issue with a law like this is where the article states "Students who look Hispanic receive print-outs explaining the harsh new law."...really? If a Mexican-American does not have documentation but is a legal citizen what happens? Police let them go, or hold for questioning? I am pretty dark, what if I forget my wallet one day and get stopped. Will I get let go or get the run around. I have been profiled before so I know the deal. The Alabama immigration law can lead to harassment of natural born citizens from profiling. To make an omelet need to break some eggs huh?
As for Alabama threatening to shut of water to families who do not provide proof of citizenship (everyone right..not just those who are of Hispanic heritage? Your 90 year old Norwegian grandma must do this...) the UN declared clean drinking water and sanitation a basic human right. No papers no basic human rights in Alabama?
http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=35456&Cr=SANITATION
Anyways my rant is over. I hope I didn't go to far off topic in some areas. Thanks for posting this Melissa.
Ikasarete Iru
Graffiti from Pompeii: VIII.2 (in the basilica); 1882: The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
Xenophanes: "If horses had Gods, they would look like horses!"
2011/10/17 18:39:52
Subject: The economic damage of harsh immigration laws
I don't know. I suspect if I had the knowledge and skills to do that particular bit of math, I wouldn't be in a position to have to worry about it so much. Therefore in lieu of blowing smoke and trying to pretend to expertise I don't actually have, I'll refer to an expert:
Mannahnin wrote:A lot of folks online (and in emails in other parts of life) use pretty mangled English. The idea is that it takes extra effort and time to write properly, and they’d rather save the time. If you can still be understood, what’s the harm? While most of the time a sloppy post CAN be understood, the use of proper grammar, punctuation, and spelling is generally seen as respectable and desirable on most forums. It demonstrates an effort made to be understood, and to make your post an easy and pleasant read. By making this effort, you can often elicit more positive responses from the community, and instantly mark yourself as someone worth talking to.
insaniak wrote: Every time someone threatens violence over the internet as a result of someone's hypothetical actions at the gaming table, the earth shakes infinitisemally in its orbit as millions of eyeballs behind millions of monitors all roll simultaneously.
2011/10/17 18:40:31
Subject: The economic damage of harsh immigration laws
Melissia wrote:This is, in many places, not possible with a minimum wage job. Minimum wage has not managed to keep up with inflation.
And in many places (I'd suggest most), it is possible with a minimum wage job. You'll just be driving a crappy car, living in a crappy apartment (possibly with 1-2 other people) and eating bland food (beans & rice).
The problem is that people want to live beyond their means, not within them.
text removed by Moderation team.
2011/10/17 18:40:46
Subject: The economic damage of harsh immigration laws
LordofHats wrote:
In construction ...... is the work they're doing 'skilled?'
Absolutely. Granted, a lot of the skills are easily learned, but that makes them no less a skill set. At the very least construction workers need to know how to... construct... correctly. Building codes govern everything nowadays, from the exact concrete mixture for floors and walls, to what type of fasteners may be used on what type of roofing, to exactly how you assemble the framework of the walls. Simply needing this knowledge as it pertains to your particular job makes these 'skilled labor positions'. Then there's the knowledge and skillsets needed to conform to all these rules and regulations while still being efficient and productive.
I would happily work next to these gentlemen ( as I do less happily now) if they were to get work visas, or at least begin/continue the process of naturalization. The vast majority of them are just human beings trying the best they can (just like the rest of us), but the sad truth is they're a large part of the reason why my ( and their) backbreaking labor earns less than it costs to provide.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
biccat wrote:
curtis wrote:Also more seriously how don't you have a problem with people actually working not being able to have a living wage?
What is a living wage?
A wage that will allow you to pay your (and your family's if applicable) bills.
So what would DOnald Trump's living wage be?
Touche. I'm sure his wage is up to the task, unlike mine. I'm sure he deserves it too. As I said previously, I don't have all (or possibly any) of the answers, but every person working legally in this country deserves to be able to support themselves on a day's wage. I'm not saying that minimum wage should cover food and bills and every luxury one could want (TV, internet, Warhammer, ETC.), but at least food and necessary bills.
Don't forget clothes and getting to work, and basically any non luxuary purchause, I'd like to add healthcare but it does seem to be a luxuary in the USA.
"The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents."
~The Call of Cthulhu
2011/10/17 18:49:32
Subject: The economic damage of harsh immigration laws
I don't know. I suspect if I had the knowledge and skills to do that particular bit of math, I wouldn't be in a position to have to worry about it so much. Therefore in lieu of blowing smoke and trying to pretend to expertise I don't actually have, I'll refer to an expert:
Respect.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2011/10/17 18:53:48
Subject: The economic damage of harsh immigration laws
Melissia wrote:Being able to obtain the basic necessities of life (fresh, non-rotten food; clean water, for both drinking and cleaning; shelter, including air conditioning and heating depending on the climate; and obtain viable transport from home to work, as otherwise they'll not be able to hold the job in the first place) without goin into debt.
A/C is hardly a "necessity" of life. central air, i will say is, as it can regulate to a certain degree the extremes of temperatures. Much of Europe (at least the portions that I have been to) have made do, and continue to make due without A/C. And often times, they get just as hot as many if not most places in America. I spent a year in Arizona, where I saw all the extremes of weather that could be seen at my locale, and the entire time, my room had a tiny little wall heater, that could blow "not as hot as outside air so it feels pretty damn nice comparatively" air during the summer months, and everything was just fine, I did something my ancestors did, opened the window!
2011/10/17 19:12:49
Subject: The economic damage of harsh immigration laws
Minimum wage was never intended to be a living wage. If we forced minimum wage up to a living wage, we'd probably have to double it (stupid one size fits all laws!) and the economy would collapse as the price of consumer goods that are produced in the US skyrocketed. Where my parents live, you'd need to earn somewhere around $16 an hour in a 40 hour work week just to get a crappy apartment. Not everywhere is as expensive as DC, but some places cost more. The repercussions of raising minimum wage to a living wage could be disastrous (or everyone will just do what Wal-mart does and hire a mountain of part timers).
If anything, outsourcing would get worse. We'd lose more jobs. Americans just cost too much to employ. It's not really our fault, it's just the way things are. A high quality of life carries with it a high price tag.
LordofHats wrote:Minimum wage was never intended to be a living wage. If we forced minimum wage up to a living wage, we'd probably have to double it (stupid one size fits all laws!) and the economy would collapse as the price of consumer goods that are produced in the US skyrocketed. Where my parents live, you'd need to earn somewhere around $16 an hour in a 40 hour work week just to get a crappy apartment. Not everywhere is as expensive as DC, but some places cost more. The repercussions of raising minimum wage to a living wage could be disastrous (or everyone will just do what Wal-mart does and hire a mountain of part timers).
If anything, outsourcing would get worse. We'd lose more jobs. Americans just cost too much to employ. It's not really our fault, it's just the way things are. A high quality of life carries with it a high price tag.
Interestingly UK min wage gives you over $18k for a 40 hour week of course here comes the arguments of taxes and stuff, which I'd rather not go into cause it's confusing as heck for me.
Ensis Ferrae wrote:
Melissia wrote:Being able to obtain the basic necessities of life (fresh, non-rotten food; clean water, for both drinking and cleaning; shelter, including air conditioning and heating depending on the climate; and obtain viable transport from home to work, as otherwise they'll not be able to hold the job in the first place) without goin into debt.
A/C is hardly a "necessity" of life. central air, i will say is, as it can regulate to a certain degree the extremes of temperatures. Much of Europe (at least the portions that I have been to) have made do, and continue to make due without A/C. And often times, they get just as hot as many if not most places in America. I spent a year in Arizona, where I saw all the extremes of weather that could be seen at my locale, and the entire time, my room had a tiny little wall heater, that could blow "not as hot as outside air so it feels pretty damn nice comparatively" air during the summer months, and everything was just fine, I did something my ancestors did, opened the window!
I would like to point out deaths due to extreme temperatures aren't as rare as you think, there were 3,442 deaths due to temp extremes between 1999 and 2003 (688 mean) 65% were due to underlying heat and 35% with hypothermia as a contributing factor. The state with the highest average annual hyperthermia-related death rate during 1999--2003 was Arizona (hey look that place you mentioned) (1.7 deaths per 100,000 population or the equivalent of the murder rate in New Zealand)
Now is that enough to consider AC/heating as necessary for at least part of the year? maybe, I know the UK gives money to OAPs for heating in the winter.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/10/17 21:15:23
"The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents."
~The Call of Cthulhu
2011/10/17 20:51:26
Subject: Re:The economic damage of harsh immigration laws
Ensis Ferrae wrote:A/C is hardly a "necessity" of life
It is here in Texas.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2011/10/17 22:14:02
Subject: The economic damage of harsh immigration laws
A character created by a third-rate philosopher whose work has since become regarded as an object of quasi-religious devotion.
Ensis Ferrae wrote:
A/C is hardly a "necessity" of life. central air, i will say is, as it can regulate to a certain degree the extremes of temperatures. Much of Europe (at least the portions that I have been to) have made do, and continue to make due without A/C. And often times, they get just as hot as many if not most places in America. I spent a year in Arizona, where I saw all the extremes of weather that could be seen at my locale, and the entire time, my room had a tiny little wall heater, that could blow "not as hot as outside air so it feels pretty damn nice comparatively" air during the summer months, and everything was just fine, I did something my ancestors did, opened the window!
I think you mean ventilation, central air is a form of AC.
In any case, large swathes of the Southwestern US were considered nearly uninhabitable before widely available air conditioning. That said, it isn't necessary for everyone to have AC in their homes, but there are some places in which not having access to it in some capacity means risking death.
LordofHats wrote:Minimum wage was never intended to be a living wage. If we forced minimum wage up to a living wage, we'd probably have to double it (stupid one size fits all laws!) and the economy would collapse as the price of consumer goods that are produced in the US skyrocketed. Where my parents live, you'd need to earn somewhere around $16 an hour in a 40 hour work week just to get a crappy apartment. Not everywhere is as expensive as DC, but some places cost more. The repercussions of raising minimum wage to a living wage could be disastrous (or everyone will just do what Wal-mart does and hire a mountain of part timers).
Right, minimum wage isn't really that bad if you're living in the right place. Oregon, as I said, is probably the best place to live on minimum wage if its necessary. In fact, just about any rural area will allow you to survive on minimum wage. The same does not apply in urban locales, though, and definitely does not apply in suburbs.
Ah suburbia, high cost of living, and no public transportation, the worst of all worlds.
Its also worth noting that most minimum wage jobs don't follow a 40 hour work week (or even a 12 month work year), given that they tend to be targeted at students. Just about anything that is full time, or not seasonal will pay more than minimum wage.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2011/10/17 22:28:06
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
2011/10/17 22:31:17
Subject: Re:The economic damage of harsh immigration laws
my mom lives in AZ, and she has mentioned a few times to me how bad things are getting, and how funny it is. She lives in a gated community, and is on the board there. Every condo has a lavish yard with fruit trees and lots of shrubs and plants. Mind you AZ is basically a desert, so these things are not natural there. Every condo in the community has "workers" that maintain their property. Most all members of the community are older Catholic white people. At a recent board meeting my mom heard a bunch of men talking about how it was so hard to find any descent work these days and needing to go find some more workers somewhere. Now these men are all retired, and it is obvious by all the yard work being not done what sort of work it is. They are passing all these anti immigration laws, and then bitching that their cheap labor force is gone. It is a joke actually. Everyone in AZ that has money has Mexican "help" around the house, and then they bitch about them coming here.
Then you have Sheriffs that take over cities and throw the mayor out of town. AZ is an effed up place
3000+
Death Company, Converted Space Hulk Termies
RIP Diz, We will never forget ya brother
2011/10/17 23:03:23
Subject: The economic damage of harsh immigration laws
dogma wrote:Ah suburbia, high cost of living, and no public transportation, the worst of all worlds.
Yeah. In suburbia's defense, it worked okay back when we were the only industrial nation in the world that wasn't bombed to all heck and had the rest of the world at our beck and call...
It does get down to the nitty gritty of the problem. American labor costs too much, and cheap labor is a basic necessity of a thriving economy. As sad as it may be, we middle class and rich folk need a lower class to make all our iStuff on the cheap Current economic systems just don't turn without that. We can't get any cheap labor from American's anymore for so many reasons, and now we turn to Southeast Asians, Chinese, and illegal immigrants.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/10/17 23:06:50
Ensis Ferrae wrote:A/C is hardly a "necessity" of life
It is here in Texas.
"Remember the Alamo?" Far as I'm aware, it's in Texas. There was a battle fought there in 1836, I believe. Modern Air Conditioning didn't exist until 1902. It's hard to have battles in places that you cannot live in. I therefore conclude that A/C is not a necessity of life, even in the questionably great state of Texas.
Ensis Ferrae wrote:A/C is hardly a "necessity" of life
It is here in Texas.
"Remember the Alamo?" Far as I'm aware, it's in Texas. There was a battle fought there in 1836, I believe. Modern Air Conditioning didn't exist until 1902. It's hard to have battles in places that you cannot live in. I therefore conclude that A/C is not a necessity of life, even in the questionably great state of Texas.
I don't believe recognizing that not all parts of Texas were able to be permanently habitable w/o technological advancements in cooling is the same as saying Texas was never inhabited. In fact I know they aren't the same thing. Heating/Cooling technology has allowed many places in Texas and the south west to be lived in. It is also why they have laws requiring AC in those areas that require them to exist in a habitation.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
2011/10/17 23:49:29
Subject: The economic damage of harsh immigration laws
There's also an issue of scale in that AC significantly increases the number of people that can live, over a protracted period, with a given fresh water supply.
Without AC places like Phoenix would have much smaller populations.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
2011/10/17 23:50:33
Subject: The economic damage of harsh immigration laws
But Texas was inhabited, that's the point. Along with most of the southwest. I've seen pueblo dwellings in the southwest that are over a thousand years old. They didn't have A/C. A/C is not a requirement to live somewhere, I don't care how hot you think it is. Maybe not many people would want to... that's a different matter entirely. But claiming A/C is a necessity is like claiming denying prisoners cable is cruel and unusual punishment - it's a ridiculous statement and denies the fact that people have existed without it for centuries.
Redbeard wrote: A/C is not a requirement to live somewhere, I don't care how hot you think it is.
If you're using "live" in a very broad sense (eg. in any possible way, not just in modern society, and for an indeterminate period of time) then that's probably true. But, when "live" is used in the contemporary, social sense it tends to reference life with reasonable access to societal institutions and for about 70 years, if you're a man.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
2011/10/18 00:00:50
Subject: The economic damage of harsh immigration laws
Okay, I challenge you to go live in a concrete heat trap (IE, anywhere near a city) with no air conditioning during a Texas heat wave-- 115 degrees, 80% or higher humidity, no wind. And not only do that, but also do that while working a fourty hour work week, while only eating ramen noodles and drinking non-cooled water.
Many tougher people than you have died because of this kind of situation... you might live through it, but you'd certainly come out FAR worse for wear, and probably be too exhausted to really do your job properly, nevermind advance in it.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2011/10/18 00:50:48
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2011/10/18 00:23:49
Subject: The economic damage of harsh immigration laws
Melissia wrote:Okay, I challenge you to go live in a concrete heat trap (IE, anywhere near a city) with no air conditioning during a Texas heat wave-- 115 degrees, 80% or higher humidity, no wind. And not only do that, but also do that while working a fourty hour work week, while only eating ramen noodles and drinking non-cooled water.
Many tougher people than you have died because of this kind of situation... you might live through it, but you'd certainly come out FAR worse for wear, and probably be too exhausted to really do your job properly, nevermind advance in it.
The human body tends to acclimate to whatever climate it is exposed to rather quickly (days to weeks). People have been living on the equator and in other extremely hot climates around the world far longer than A/C has been around.
I have worked in extreme heat as well, I used to run cable in Florida and would often find myself in peoples attics in mid afternoon when 110-120F would have been a blessing and 140-150 was the norm. At first I could barely stand 3-5 minutes but after getting used to it I could tolerate it till the job was done as long as I drank tons of water, usually hot out of the back of my truck.
Seriously, find an old steel mill worker who used to pull 12-16 hours days playing with molten steel and try telling him 115 degrees is too hot to work 40 hours a week when they worked in 150 degree mills in full body suits and thermal underwear.
2011/10/18 01:51:28
Subject: The economic damage of harsh immigration laws
Melissia wrote:Okay, I challenge you to go live in a concrete heat trap (IE, anywhere near a city) with no air conditioning during a Texas heat wave-- 115 degrees, 80% or higher humidity, no wind. And not only do that, but also do that while working a fourty hour work week, while only eating ramen noodles and drinking non-cooled water.
Many tougher people than you have died because of this kind of situation... you might live through it, but you'd certainly come out FAR worse for wear, and probably be too exhausted to really do your job properly, nevermind advance in it.
The human body tends to acclimate to whatever climate it is exposed to rather quickly (days to weeks). People have been living on the equator and in other extremely hot climates around the world far longer than A/C has been around.
I have worked in extreme heat as well, I used to run cable in Florida and would often find myself in peoples attics in mid afternoon when 110-120F would have been a blessing and 140-150 was the norm. At first I could barely stand 3-5 minutes but after getting used to it I could tolerate it till the job was done as long as I drank tons of water, usually hot out of the back of my truck.
Seriously, find an old steel mill worker who used to pull 12-16 hours days playing with molten steel and try telling him 115 degrees is too hot to work 40 hours a week when they worked in 150 degree mills in full body suits and thermal underwear.
And? They weren't trying to LIVE in those temperatures. Not talking about spending 8 hours a day and no weekends in these conditions-- hell, I've done taht, and I wouldn't claim to be physically tough-- but rather, 16 hours a day and all day weekends. When you're eating (and probably not able to keep an appetite), when you're sleeping (and probably not very well). No cold showers to cool you down, no refrigerator for cold food, no cold water to drink. In fact, you may very well look forward to work as at least there you might have air conditioning....
These kinds of conditions can kill. And they do kill.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/10/18 01:59:15
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2011/10/18 02:00:04
Subject: The economic damage of harsh immigration laws
Melissia wrote:Okay, I challenge you to go live in a concrete heat trap (IE, anywhere near a city) with no air conditioning during a Texas heat wave-- 115 degrees, 80% or higher humidity, no wind. And not only do that, but also do that while working a fourty hour work week, while only eating ramen noodles and drinking non-cooled water.
Many tougher people than you have died because of this kind of situation... you might live through it, but you'd certainly come out FAR worse for wear, and probably be too exhausted to really do your job properly, nevermind advance in it.
The human body tends to acclimate to whatever climate it is exposed to rather quickly (days to weeks). People have been living on the equator and in other extremely hot climates around the world far longer than A/C has been around.
I have worked in extreme heat as well, I used to run cable in Florida and would often find myself in peoples attics in mid afternoon when 110-120F would have been a blessing and 140-150 was the norm. At first I could barely stand 3-5 minutes but after getting used to it I could tolerate it till the job was done as long as I drank tons of water, usually hot out of the back of my truck.
Seriously, find an old steel mill worker who used to pull 12-16 hours days playing with molten steel and try telling him 115 degrees is too hot to work 40 hours a week when they worked in 150 degree mills in full body suits and thermal underwear.
Steel mill workers are pansies real men work in mines where there's heat, dust, poisonous gases and cave ins.
Also nice to see no one has mentioned my figures.
"The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents."
3000+
Death Company, Converted Space Hulk Termies
Current economic systems just don't turn without that. We can't get any cheap labor from American's anymore for so many reasons, and now we turn to Southeast Asians, Chinese, and illegal immigrants.
