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the_ferrett wrote:Query: How do Orks (without using a battlewagon) reliably kill a Blood taloned dread with AV 13 and a multimelta.

I think we are meant to say nob squad or kanz. But get behind it and glance with shootas. Or get behind it with buggies or koptas. The odds on the blood talon are weird you should be prepared for it to do no damage or kill virtually all your mob, the point being if you charge with boyz the nob is more than capable of taking it out.

I find when blood angels play dreads their army isn't too well balanced which means there is always some other weakness to exploit.

A biker warboss? It can't instant-death him and will have a hard time wounding him due to WS5, T6 and 5++, while six attacks S10 will at the very least rip off one of the two talons. Otherwise rokkits from buggies/koptaz into their sides or rear. As a last resort Nobz might work, but you will lose a bunch of expensive wounds in the process, I would rather try my luck with boyz any day. Lootaz could also try to glance off their weapons or immobilize, but they are usually busy shooting red metal bawkses.

lukyboi wrote:two words: POWER KLAW!

One answer : Nope.



You dont want to get into CC with those dreads, they just chew up boyz. Even on the charge, you still have to compare WS to hit, and then roll a 4 for glance 5+ for pen, and then roll well on the damage chart. And with a Warboss, yea its easier to down one, but youd better hope your lucky as sin to not be killed before you can start smashing. PKs go last, meaning the dread goes before you get your chance.

The PK only works decently on a vehicle with a boarding plank.

As far as non vehicle use goes, we've basically got dreads/kan mobs, massed rokkit shots from either rokkit buggies/tankbustas/kannon crews (and I mean MASSED because I dont count luck) and thats it. Luck wise, you could try Zzap! guns or the SAG, but again, your rolling for STR and luck comes into that one, not to mention the SAG uses a scatter, so keep in mind that Orks are BS2, and scatters usually scatter alot unless you roll a hit

As usual, I'd like to point out that both the SAG and the Zaap! gun are worse at penetrating armor than a rokkit.

As someone has brought this up the talons are strength 6. So no instant death unless you are thinking about grots.

Actually I do not see the blood talons eating through nob biker squads in particular. I think T5, cyborg bodies and wound allocation will mean enough will survive so you can kill the thing, this may be expensive.

Also I actually think against av13 zzap guns are better than rockets, I can definitely remember they are better against av14. Otherwise yes rockets are better.

If I play against Orks, I don't even try to win. I shoot for a draw. Orks are scary.

Are Orks competitive? Absolutely, as much as I hate to admit it. When an Ork player gets on a hot streak, he can plow through anything. Conversely, bad luck hurts them more than any other army.

I still run Nob Bikers in every friendly game I play against every army except Gray Knights, which is why I don't run Nob Bikers at Tournaments any more. Though it did change my style of play and tactics, at least I have 600+ points to move into more tournament vital units. This is probably how the massed cavalry charge felt about machine guns circa 1915.

the_ferrett wrote:Query: How do Orks (without using a battlewagon) reliably kill a Blood taloned dread with AV 13 and a multimelta.

Deff Dread or Kanz in CC. Blood talons lose any use.

Jidmah wrote:As usual, I'd like to point out that both the SAG and the Zaap! gun are worse at penetrating armor than a rokkit.

Granted. Thats why I put them in the "luck" category, as you have to be lucky to make them work. So yea, I only mentioned them, for that reason, they could pop armor.........and thats a pretty strong could when I say that

MFletch wrote:Also I actually think against av13 zzap guns are better than rockets, I can definitely remember they are better against av14. Otherwise yes rockets are better.

Not, it's not. A common misconception is that a Zzap Gun rolls 3d6 for armor penetration(which is actually better than a rokkit), but it does not. The first 2d6 can't go above 10, which hampers the Zzap Gun's anti-tank potential drastically.

Chance of 2d6 being 10 or higher: 16.66%
Chance of 1d6 armor penetration being 4 or higher: 50%
-> 8.33% to penetrate
-> 2.77% to glance

Chance of 2d6 being 9: 11.11%
Chance of 1d6 armor penetration being 5 or higher: 33.33%
-> 3.70% to penetrate
-> 1.85% to glance

Chance of 2d6 being 8: 13,88%
Chance of 1d6 armor penetration being 6: 16,66%
-> 2,31% to penetrate
-> 2,31% to glance

Total:
14,34% chance to penetrate AV13
6.94% chance to glance AV13

A rokkit has a 16,66% chance to penetrate and a 16,66% chance to glance AV13. Even the ordnance reroll for the SAG doesn't close the gap, not even including mishaps.

Competitive? I have no idea. I run Orks because they are fun as hell. Plus the looks on opponent's faces when their super uber units die is priceless. Last week 2 mobz of boyz killed Fateweaver, I lost the game but that was so worth it!

The more varied armies out there, the better the Orks chances are of winning. Orks were designed to always beat Necrons so I'm really looking forward to the new codex coming out. Grey Knights will have to change their lists which can only help the boyz.

Plus the idea of any league or tournament not having at least 1 ork army is sad and disturbing.

Try 180 boyz, behind a kan wall, when the kans have a KFF covering them....

That's scary and competitive......

180 boyz fits nicely into 1750 once you add in some support and leadership. At that point level, there is nothing that can pump out enough shots to stop the tide of boyz from running through your line. Once they get to the line, there is enough dice rolling to count on the law of averages working out in your favor. 116 boyz swings at TH/SS termies, 40-60 hit, 20-30 wound. if that is on 5 terminators, they are all taking 4-6 saves. Somebody is dying.

-cgmckenzie

cgmckenzie wrote:180 boyz fits nicely into 1750 once you add in some support and leadership. At that point level, there is nothing that can pump out enough shots to stop the tide of boyz from running through your line. Once they get to the line, there is enough dice rolling to count on the law of averages working out in your favor. 116 boyz swings at TH/SS termies, 40-60 hit, 20-30 wound. if that is on 5 terminators, they are all taking 4-6 saves. Somebody is dying.

-cgmckenzie

And THAT is way boyz mobz are beast...

The ork codex has aged well. It isn't top tier, but it's still quite competitive. Sadly, it means we will probably be the last codex updated to 5th edition. But, it will be updated to 5th edition around the timke 6th edition comes out, so it'll be made with 6th edition in mind, just like the 4th edition codex was made. So, orks will most likely continue the cycle of being a strong codex that is not quite top tier, but can still hold its own in most situations. In short, it's a good army to invest in, because the way it's looking, orks will never be a BAD codex.

I had some good results with a wagon list. However, if I didn't get first turn I really suffered.

loota boy wrote:The ork codex has aged well. It isn't top tier, but it's still quite competitive. Sadly, it means we will probably be the last codex updated to 5th edition. But, it will be updated to 5th edition around the timke 6th edition comes out, so it'll be made with 6th edition in mind, just like the 4th edition codex was made. So, orks will most likely continue the cycle of being a strong codex that is not quite top tier, but can still hold its own in most situations. In short, it's a good army to invest in, because the way it's looking, orks will never be a BAD codex.

I think that is slightly more luck than judgement.

The development going to 5th is that mech is more important. Where is the abundance of antimech in the ork codex is planning for 5th edition? The fact that the only lists that work for orks require spamming units is cute and feels orky but they can not thinking about 5th edition when they made it like that.

Are you an optimistic sisters of battle player, I am sure the new codex is designed for 6th as it doesn't well with 5th .

MFletch wrote:

loota boy wrote:The ork codex has aged well. It isn't top tier, but it's still quite competitive. Sadly, it means we will probably be the last codex updated to 5th edition. But, it will be updated to 5th edition around the timke 6th edition comes out, so it'll be made with 6th edition in mind, just like the 4th edition codex was made. So, orks will most likely continue the cycle of being a strong codex that is not quite top tier, but can still hold its own in most situations. In short, it's a good army to invest in, because the way it's looking, orks will never be a BAD codex.

I think that is slightly more luck than judgement.

The development going to 5th is that mech is more important. Where is the abundance of antimech in the ork codex is planning for 5th edition? The fact that the only lists that work for orks require spamming units is cute and feels orky but they can not thinking about 5th edition when they made it like that.

Are you an optimistic sisters of battle player, I am sure the new codex is designed for 6th as it doesn't well with 5th .

I'm having a bit of difficulty reading your post, but what i'm getting is that you think that orks weren't written with 5th edition in mind because they arn't good at building mech lists? Or that they can't handle mech lists? First off, we were told by GW directly that they were built with 5th edition in mind. 2nd off, orks do mech quite well, just not in the traditional sense. The kff makes their mech builds arguably more survivable than anyone elses. Mech doesn't neccessarily mean lots of small units in 7-8 transports. Battlewagon brigade is like heavy mech, and even though there are no transports, i'm inclined to call a kanwall a mech list, seeing as it brings tons of armour to the table to overwhelm the anti-tank. That's one of the more important ideas behind mech lists.

Also, in regard to not being able to handle mech, i disagree. Kanwall brings enough rokkits to the table to stunt most mech forces, and then carves them up with dccw. Lootas turn transports into smoking bullet-ridden wrecks. Koptas can nail out transports before they even move with tl rokkits and buzzsaws coupled with scout moves. Battlewagons roll over rhinos without slowing down, and can boarding plank one to death on the way. And there is, of course, the all-mighty power klaw. Just because many of an army's anti-armour methods are cc-related doesn't make them bad methods.

And to your theory that i play sisters, i don't. I prefer to have more than one list to choose from.

Orks do just fine. They have some popular builds you can find on the internet. Kanwall, battlewagon spam, nob bikers (and variants, as there are some adjustments to today's meta).

the_ferrett wrote:In which squad? I've attempted it in with boys, but even with 30 of them I have not landed a destroyed on the blighter. (3 games, 5 squads)

with 30 boys in a squad the only thing in the squad who could hurt it would be the nob with a power klaw so just let the dread attack you then when its done attack back with the nob. who on the charge should be getting 5 attacks at strength 9 at least. that means rolling a 4 to glance. warboss would probably be your best bet. or mega armored nobs. maybe even regular nobz.

Just to point out, a Nob will only get 4 attacks on the charge with the PK, not 5. Even still, it can be a PITA to down a dread with a single Nob, specially if you dont down it on the assault.

Orks are absolutely still competitive. You can run a Kan wall in 850 point games. Also, Lootas are great as well as Nob bikers. Other than that, spam boys. Remember, shootas are assault not rapid fire.

Lootas, thats how you get rid of them.

Glance them to death?

Thats how I ran my Necrons, with that very mentality It worked well


But yea for Lootas OTOH, I would only rely on the glances, if they had nothing else in range to shoot, troops included.