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gorgon wrote:But really, few Americans really remember, care or vote based on that. Voters are a bunch of cavemen following tribal politics. You have a big chunk of people who will vote for their tribe no matter what, then a chunk of swing voters who vote based on visceral stuff. We just have to see which narrative between "ECONOMY AM BAD" and "ROMNEY AM WEIRD" wins out.

I mean, Dubya basically got re-elected on the whole "guy you'd rather have a beer with" thing.

Dubya got elected on being the guy you'd rather have a beer with compared with Robo-Gore.

He got re-elected on fear. Fear of changing the leader the year after we had gone into a second simultaneous war, and fear of gay people, as Rove had the brilliant strategy of getting anti-gay-marriage amendments and ballot initiatives on the ballots in a large number of states for the Nov 04 election, bringing the worst elements of the religious vote out in droves.

Mannahnin wrote:

gorgon wrote:But really, few Americans really remember, care or vote based on that. Voters are a bunch of cavemen following tribal politics. You have a big chunk of people who will vote for their tribe no matter what, then a chunk of swing voters who vote based on visceral stuff. We just have to see which narrative between "ECONOMY AM BAD" and "ROMNEY AM WEIRD" wins out.

I mean, Dubya basically got re-elected on the whole "guy you'd rather have a beer with" thing.

Dubya got elected on being the guy you'd rather have a beer with compared with Robo-Gore.

He got re-elected on fear. Fear of changing the leader the year after we had gone into a second simultaneous war, and fear of gay people, as Rove had the brilliant strategy of getting anti-gay-marriage amendments and ballot initiatives on the ballots in a large number of states for the Nov 04 election, bringing the worst elements of the religious vote out in droves.

GWB got elected because his brother runs the voting machine company, he lost the popular vote but somehow "won"/

Mannahnin wrote:
He got re-elected on fear. Fear of changing the leader the year after we had gone into a second simultaneous war, and fear of gay people, as Rove had the brilliant strategy of getting anti-gay-marriage amendments and ballot initiatives on the ballots in a large number of states for the Nov 04 election, bringing the worst elements of the religious vote out in droves.

I get brought in, sometimes, as "guest speaker" (ie. the professor doesn't want to teach that day) in Presidential Politics courses, and, since I'm lazy, my normal topic of the day is "Would the latter Bush have been reelected if 9/11 did not happen?"

It is a contentious topic, but an interesting one in terms of speculation given how narrow his first victory was, and how narrow his second was against a candidate as bad as Kerry.

Mannahnin wrote:

gorgon wrote:But really, few Americans really remember, care or vote based on that. Voters are a bunch of cavemen following tribal politics. You have a big chunk of people who will vote for their tribe no matter what, then a chunk of swing voters who vote based on visceral stuff. We just have to see which narrative between "ECONOMY AM BAD" and "ROMNEY AM WEIRD" wins out.

I mean, Dubya basically got re-elected on the whole "guy you'd rather have a beer with" thing.

Dubya got elected on being the guy you'd rather have a beer with compared with Robo-Gore.

He got re-elected on fear. Fear of changing the leader the year after we had gone into a second simultaneous war, and fear of gay people, as Rove had the brilliant strategy of getting anti-gay-marriage amendments and ballot initiatives on the ballots in a large number of states for the Nov 04 election, bringing the worst elements of the religious vote out in droves.

Gore also represented the same group of people that shoved an assault rifle in the face of a kid and his relatives, to make the kid go back to Cuba. Thats what did it for me.

DIDM wrote:..., he lost the popular vote but somehow "won"/

"Somehow", it's called the Electoral College.

Best,

Phanatik wrote:

DIDM wrote:..., he lost the popular vote but somehow "won"/

"Somehow", it's called the Electoral College.

Best,

And is an antiquated beast....that or a not so clever way of screwing the people out of truly deciding who leads their country.

agnosto wrote:

Phanatik wrote:

DIDM wrote:..., he lost the popular vote but somehow "won"/

"Somehow", it's called the Electoral College.

Best,

And is an antiquated beast....that or a not so clever way of screwing the people out of truly deciding who leads their country.

Its designed for the same reason that the Senate has two senators for each state. Its designed so that the more populous states do not completely dominate. Else voting would be effectively meaningless for most of "flyover country."

Frazzled wrote:

agnosto wrote:

Phanatik wrote:

DIDM wrote:..., he lost the popular vote but somehow "won"/

"Somehow", it's called the Electoral College.

Best,

And is an antiquated beast....that or a not so clever way of screwing the people out of truly deciding who leads their country.

Its designed for the same reason that the Senate has two senators for each state. Its designed so that the more populous states do not completely dominate. Else voting would be effectively meaningless for most of "flyover country."

It already is. Most of the "flyover" states are already predetermined in who they're going to vote for (as well as most of the South, Midwest, Northwest and New England). There's only 3 or 4 states that actually matter in the general election.

If that were true we would have had Democratic presidents continuously since FDR.

Don't you see Frazzled? The electoral college is a Republican Conspiracy to keep themselves in power.

AustonT wrote:Don't you see Frazzled? The electoral college is a Republican Conspiracy to keep themselves in power.

Its all clear to me now. Nixon was secretly...zombie Jefferson!

Son of a...CALL MSNBC! The world must know of this Republican outrage!

Frazzled wrote:

agnosto wrote:

Phanatik wrote:

DIDM wrote:..., he lost the popular vote but somehow "won"/

"Somehow", it's called the Electoral College.

Best,

And is an antiquated beast....that or a not so clever way of screwing the people out of truly deciding who leads their country.

Its designed for the same reason that the Senate has two senators for each state. Its designed so that the more populous states do not completely dominate. Else voting would be effectively meaningless for most of "flyover country."

It should be. The ground isn't the thing that's voting. They have state legislatures to care for their really spaced out needs.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

agnosto wrote:

Phanatik wrote:

DIDM wrote:..., he lost the popular vote but somehow "won"/

"Somehow", it's called the Electoral College.

Best,

And is an antiquated beast....that or a not so clever way of screwing the people out of truly deciding who leads their country.

Its designed for the same reason that the Senate has two senators for each state. Its designed so that the more populous states do not completely dominate. Else voting would be effectively meaningless for most of "flyover country."

It should be. The ground isn't the thing that's voting. They have state legislatures to care for their really spaced out needs.

Hardly.

Frazzled wrote:Gore also represented the same group of people that shoved an assault rifle in the face of a kid and his relatives, to make the kid go back to Cuba. Thats what did it for me.

Huh. In literally dozens of other posts on this board, you endorsed exactly this sort of treatment for other illegal aliens.

Frazzled wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

agnosto wrote:

Phanatik wrote:

DIDM wrote:..., he lost the popular vote but somehow "won"/

"Somehow", it's called the Electoral College.

Best,

And is an antiquated beast....that or a not so clever way of screwing the people out of truly deciding who leads their country.

Its designed for the same reason that the Senate has two senators for each state. Its designed so that the more populous states do not completely dominate. Else voting would be effectively meaningless for most of "flyover country."

It should be. The ground isn't the thing that's voting. They have state legislatures to care for their really spaced out needs.

Hardly.

They aren't more important because they have more land. That is fundamentally undemocratic.

Ouze wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Gore also represented the same group of people that shoved an assault rifle in the face of a kid and his relatives, to make the kid go back to Cuba. Thats what did it for me.

Huh. In literally dozens of other posts on this board, you endorsed exactly this sort of treatment for other illegal aliens.

Cubans are granted asylum under US law the moment their butts touch US shore.

And no I haven't. Please revisit whatever posts you're referencing. My stance is that we should have secure borders and then throw out the riff raff and criminals. I'd put an illegal immigrant up against anyone in terms of work.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

agnosto wrote:

Phanatik wrote:

DIDM wrote:..., he lost the popular vote but somehow "won"/

"Somehow", it's called the Electoral College.

Best,

And is an antiquated beast....that or a not so clever way of screwing the people out of truly deciding who leads their country.

Its designed for the same reason that the Senate has two senators for each state. Its designed so that the more populous states do not completely dominate. Else voting would be effectively meaningless for most of "flyover country."

It should be. The ground isn't the thing that's voting. They have state legislatures to care for their really spaced out needs.

Hardly.

They aren't more important because they have more land. That is fundamentally undemocratic.

Thats what the House is for. In the same way the Senate protects the states, the electoral college protects the Presidency. Sorry but in the immortal words of John Belushi: Suck it.

Frazzled wrote:

Ouze wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Gore also represented the same group of people that shoved an assault rifle in the face of a kid and his relatives, to make the kid go back to Cuba. Thats what did it for me.

Huh. In literally dozens of other posts on this board, you endorsed exactly this sort of treatment for other illegal aliens.

Cubans are granted asylum under US law the moment their butts touch US shore.

And no I haven't. Please revisit whatever posts you're referencing. My stance is that we should have secure borders and then throw out the riff raff and criminals. I'd put an illegal immigrant up against anyone in terms of work.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

agnosto wrote:

Phanatik wrote:

DIDM wrote:..., he lost the popular vote but somehow "won"/

"Somehow", it's called the Electoral College.

Best,

And is an antiquated beast....that or a not so clever way of screwing the people out of truly deciding who leads their country.

Its designed for the same reason that the Senate has two senators for each state. Its designed so that the more populous states do not completely dominate. Else voting would be effectively meaningless for most of "flyover country."

It should be. The ground isn't the thing that's voting. They have state legislatures to care for their really spaced out needs.

Hardly.

They aren't more important because they have more land. That is fundamentally undemocratic.

Thats what the House is for. In the same way the Senate protects the states, the electoral college protects the Presidency. Sorry but in the immortal words of John Belushi: Suck it.

I don't think so Tim. The presidency has never been made to cater to the estates of the landed gentry. That's some monarchy gak. One man one vote, no matter how much distance is between you and your neighbor. All votes being equal. I know you've always been pro empire, but you gotta let it go. The states seceded. It's done.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Ouze wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Gore also represented the same group of people that shoved an assault rifle in the face of a kid and his relatives, to make the kid go back to Cuba. Thats what did it for me.

Huh. In literally dozens of other posts on this board, you endorsed exactly this sort of treatment for other illegal aliens.

Cubans are granted asylum under US law the moment their butts touch US shore.

And no I haven't. Please revisit whatever posts you're referencing. My stance is that we should have secure borders and then throw out the riff raff and criminals. I'd put an illegal immigrant up against anyone in terms of work.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

agnosto wrote:

Phanatik wrote:

DIDM wrote:..., he lost the popular vote but somehow "won"/

"Somehow", it's called the Electoral College.

Best,

And is an antiquated beast....that or a not so clever way of screwing the people out of truly deciding who leads their country.

Its designed for the same reason that the Senate has two senators for each state. Its designed so that the more populous states do not completely dominate. Else voting would be effectively meaningless for most of "flyover country."

It should be. The ground isn't the thing that's voting. They have state legislatures to care for their really spaced out needs.

Hardly.

They aren't more important because they have more land. That is fundamentally undemocratic.

Thats what the House is for. In the same way the Senate protects the states, the electoral college protects the Presidency. Sorry but in the immortal words of John Belushi: Suck it.

I don't think so Tim. The presidency has never been made to cater to the estates of the landed gentry. That's some monarchy gak. One man one vote, no matter how much distance is between you and your neighbor. All votes being equal. I know you've always been pro empire, but you gotta let it go. The states seceded. It's done.

Not quite working on all thrusters are you. Electoral college is determined by population, the same as Congress. It protects the interests, not of the "landed gentry" but all those small pissant states (like Maine) from those evil big states like Texas and California. After all, it was designed to protect states like Rhode Island and Massachusetts from Virginia.

ShumaGorath wrote:
I don't think so Tim. The presidency has never been made to cater to the estates of the landed gentry. That's some monarchy gak. One man one vote, no matter how much distance is between you and your neighbor. All votes being equal. I know you've always been pro empire, but you gotta let it go. The states seceded. It's done.

Bwahahahaha. You live in a fantasy world wherein you seem to think a farmer who lives dirt poor his whole life dies and gives the same life to his son in Montana is "landed gentry."
The electoral college protects the people of low population states from the predations of those with a higher population in exactly the same way the House and Senate do. Its wierd how the concept is so continuous through the Legislative and Executive branch.

AustonT wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:
I don't think so Tim. The presidency has never been made to cater to the estates of the landed gentry. That's some monarchy gak. One man one vote, no matter how much distance is between you and your neighbor. All votes being equal. I know you've always been pro empire, but you gotta let it go. The states seceded. It's done.

Bwahahahaha. You live in a fantasy world wherein you seem to think a farmer who lives dirt poor his whole life dies and gives the same life to his son in Montana is "landed gentry."
The electoral college protects the people of low population states from the predations of those with a higher population in exactly the same way the House and Senate do. Its wierd how the concept is so continuous through the Legislative and Executive branch.

Actually if you think about it, it makes sense. The state were prima at the time of the COnstitution, and you had to rectify the interests of the smaller states with the big ones (namely Virginia). All the New England states were attempting to protect their interests and not get subsumed by the might of Virginia.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhmwcmOPemk

Frazzled I watch that video thinking, where could he possibly be going with this? And then 71 Virginians.

AustonT wrote:Frazzled I watch that video thinking, where could he possibly be going with this? And then 71 Virginians.

George Washington vs. Al Qaeda Terrorist - bootstomping smackdown!

AustonT wrote:
The electoral college protects the people of low population states from the predations of those with a higher population in exactly the same way the House and Senate do. Its wierd how the concept is so continuous through the Legislative and Executive branch.

When was the last time that a Presidential election was decided by Wyoming?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frazzled wrote:
Its designed for the same reason that the Senate has two senators for each state. Its designed so that the more populous states do not completely dominate. Else voting would be effectively meaningless for most of "flyover country."

It may have been designed that way, but that isn't what it actually does, not in today's political environment.

The most significant effect that the electoral college has today is to make meaningless voting as a Republican in California, or as a Democrat in Texas.

dogma wrote:

AustonT wrote:
The electoral college protects the people of low population states from the predations of those with a higher population in exactly the same way the House and Senate do. Its wierd how the concept is so continuous through the Legislative and Executive branch.

When was the last time that a Presidential election was decided by Wyoming?

Never

There's never been an electoral vote that has been within 3 since Wyoming was made a state.

Exactly. If the electoral college was intended to somehow protect small states from being dominated by large ones, it doesn't do a very good job of it, which should call into question its reason for existing.

Gotta love a system where nobody actually votes for President and votes for people to vote instead.

But yeah, on a "electoral votes per population" the electoral college does give more strenght to the smaller states.

And the only reason presidential elections are decided by certain states is because those states are swing states, not because of a magical number.

d-usa wrote:Gotta love a system where nobody actually votes for President and votes for people to vote instead.

Maybe we could come up with a name for a system like that. You know, a descriptor for a system in which 'representatives' are used in a democracy. Seems like an awful idea that should be avoided either way.

I came here expecting Katy Perry.

I am disappoint.

Ahtman wrote:

d-usa wrote:Gotta love a system where nobody actually votes for President and votes for people to vote instead.

Maybe we could come up with a name for a system like that. You know, a descriptor for a system in which 'representatives' are used in a democracy. Seems like an awful idea that should be avoided either way.

Yeah yeah, representative democracy is the idea behind congress.

But even with congress, you actually vote for your congress person.

But by all legality, we do not have an election for the office of president. You vote for (in the case of Oklahoma) 7 people to show up and cast their vote for President.