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nkelsch wrote:

adameast wrote:

One of the reason they don't include stats is because if you're more involved in the hobby then you'll know these things, thus benefiting you as a player to be more involved.

Totally disagree. And this is basically you putting a 'soft score' in because you are claiming remembering stats makes you a better player and should give you an in-game advantage. Why not just make everyone take a pub quiz?

Your opponent is justified in seeing your armies stats anytime he wants. If you have to let him page through your codex, then that is what you have to do. Since you are obligated to provide the info at request, it is EASIER to provide it on a summary sheet with your army list.

These types of attitudes are why there need to be standardized lists because people do manipulate it by providing minimal lists in order gain an advantage.

Agree with this comment. One of the most important rules I stress as a TO is that anyone at anytime can take a look at your list plus codex and compare it to what is being played on the table. All rules are explained before the tournament begins. When there are money AND prizes involved in the tournaments I run, I have always found that the players will essentially enforce those rules themselves due to their own interests.

I rarely have issues with blatant cheating. The main issues I run into are Modeling for Advantage and not having a clear and concise army lists for others to read.

Make 2 copies of your army list.

give one to the tournament organizer so he can keep a record of it and the other one for your games.

if your opponent feels you are cheating then the organizer can call you up on it and kick you out the tournament simple as that.

I like having my own copy of the list because it saves time looking something up, rather than stopping and scanning while my opponent waits....


If someone is going to alter a list, <shrugs> What I care about is the list matching the figures on the table, and being able to know any non identifiable abilities, like psychic powers.

TO's can prevent list cheating by posting a winning list either on a store board or the net...people can look at it and go hey, that guy cheated.

Make 2 copies of your army list.

give one to the tournament organizer so he can keep a record of it and the other one for your games.

Back when GW put requirements for their tournaments, the standard was a number of copies equal to the rounds in the tournament +2. One for you, one for the organizers (handed in during reg) and one for each opponent. It's a good standard.

nkelsch wrote:Your opponent is justified in seeing your armies stats anytime he wants. If you have to let him page through your codex, then that is what you have to do.

Exactly. This is what the summary page in the back of your codex is for. If you're not sure whether a unit has Ld8 or 9, or WS4 or 5, it's right there in the back of the codex for easy access.

nkelsch wrote:Since you are obligated to provide the info at request, it is EASIER to provide it on a summary sheet with your army list.

Disagree. It is not easier for me to add all those statlines and weapon profiles to all of my army lists than it is to just show my opponent the back page of my codex.

nkelsch wrote:[These types of attitudes are why there need to be standardized lists because people do manipulate it by providing minimal lists in order gain an advantage.

Standardized lists are not a bad idea at all. I still essentially use the format GW provided for their Rogue Trader tournaments ten years ago. Each unit has the name of the unit, the number of models in it, any upgrades and options selected and exact points costs for those upgrades, and total cost of the unit. HQ units come first, then Elite, Troops, Fast Attack & HS. At the end is the points total.

I far prefer this format (receiving from an opponent) to Army Buillder, as Army Builder (unless you use the Print as Text Summary option) takes that data above and obfuscates it by hiding those essential details among mountains of dross and chaff and wasted ink, taking what could have been a nice clear, easily-readable listing on a single page into a 2-3 page document covered in repetitive and useless numbers. Do I need to see the SM or IG statline repeated fourteen times, or that each SM squad has And They Shall Know No Fear? No, I need to see which squads have meltaguns and how many.

Mannahnin wrote:Disagree. It is not easier for me to add all those statlines and weapon profiles to all of my army lists than it is to just show my opponent the back page of my codex.

I'd agree with this, my only caveat being you have to be the kind of person who WANTS to hand over your codex if you don't have the stats on the army list. Not everyone is this way! Some people want/need to have their codex on hand for themselves to check that page frequently, so handing it over would cause a lot of passing it back and forth.

Of course in that case the best thing to do would be to make a copy of the page in question...

Yeah, at that point you might as well make a photocopy and keep it with you.

I do agree that all the BS fluff makes AB lists cumbersome.
So when I save an AB List that I KNOW I will use in a major event I also save it as an HTML file, then open it in Word.
I then edit out all the "ATSKNF" and redundant info that tells me a Rhino is a tank or a Drop-Pod is immobile. It leaves only the important information: FOC slot, Stat-lines, Wargear, Special Rules, and points cost.
Between fonts, font size, and page setups I can usually get a 2K list onto a single page for convinience.

Of course the more unscrupulous can do the same thing and "accidently" tweek his Statlines so Crons are now I-3 or bump up someones Ld...but then "That Guy" would be doing the same thing with his chicken scratch list that he lets you look at for about 30 seconds before rushing the game start.

I tend to provide a list to each opponent since many folks do battle reports and blogs and it makes it easier for them to trace out the units and action rather than trying to remember what the 3rd Space Marine Army he played that day was comprised of.

dkellyj wrote:I do agree that all the BS fluff makes AB lists cumbersome.
So when I save an AB List that I KNOW I will use in a major event I also save it as an HTML file, then open it in Word.
I then edit out all the "ATSKNF" and redundant info that tells me a Rhino is a tank or a Drop-Pod is immobile. It leaves only the important information: FOC slot, Stat-lines, Wargear, Special Rules, and points cost.
Between fonts, font size, and page setups I can usually get a 2K list onto a single page for convinience.

Why go through all that hassle? Just use the tournament list in AB itself. File->Save Text Summary-> Tournament Format. The basic AB roster can also be edited with roster output options to include only wargear, special rules, and statlines.

Most tournaments I have been to are happy enough with my list written as...

HQ: Captain (45) Autogun (2) Super Crack Grenades (3) [50]
Troop: SpecOps Squad (100) 3x Missile launcher (3x10) [130]
etc

It shows the units I've selected and any wargear taken as well as the points values for each item and the total. A photocopy of the back page of the codex is available too if needed, but I'm more than happy to hand over my codex anyway.

I Played in a fantasy tournament and my opponent had a 7+ page list, fateweaver alone was 2-3. It had every item/rule/magic table/ and miscast table. multiple times in the case of the mages. It was completely unuseable. I just handed it back and asked him to tell me what everything and to leave his armybook on the table as it was easier for me. He grumbled and tried the whole "no its in my list" thing but eventually he relented and ran me through his list. I prefer my opponents to use a tournament output. I feel that if I dont know what something does I should read it from the source and not some summary by armybuilder™