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It's just not true. "moving as if in" and "treats open terrain as difficult" are clearly different things.

Orikan's power does NOT make the whole board difficult. There's no basis to think so.

Fare point I was just trying to dumb down how to define what units Orikan makes count as moving in difficult terrain where I really didn't need to. However "moving as if in" and moving that "treats open terrain as difficult" still share the same penalty, which when the C'tan is alive happens to include dangerous terrain checks. This is how myself, everyone I've faced and everyone I've seen face it have played it. If you don't want to play it that way discuss if with your opponent before the game and if necessary roll on it.

Nebulas1 wrote:Orikan however changes this from the player elected terrain to the board itself representing difficult terrain.

No. The C'Tan's Writhing Worldscape effects Difficult and/or Dangerous Terrain, not Open Ground. Does Writhing Worldscape make Open Terrain Dangerous? No. A unit would have to be in Difficult Terrain, not Open Ground, to be affected by Writhing Worldscape.

Temporal Snares affects units, not Terrain. Does Temporal Snares make Open Ground Dangerous? No. It makes units treat Open Ground like Difficult Terrain. How do units treat Difficult Terrain? They take a Difficult Terrain Test when moving through it, not a Dangerous Terrain Test.

These would work together if Temporal Snares CHANGED Open Ground into Difficult Terrain, or Writhing Worldscape made all Difficult Terrain Tests Dangerous, but they don't. Even though I am pretty sure this is how they are supposed to work, they do not as written. Sorry.

Ok I don't think I'm really getting what I mean out right.


If I move into terrain I have to take a difficult terrain check. How do I determine what I have to do for that? I read the difficult terrain entry in the rule book. Unfortunately for me the necron codex has writhing worldscape which modifies how I play this rule.

Now I am playing against orikan and have to move like I am in terrain without being in terrain. Fair enough I'll just go to my rule book again. Unfortunately there is no entry for moving as if in difficult terrain I am instead referred to the actual difficult terrain rule which is modified by the C'tan.

While the reason I am forced to take the check differs the method upon which I determine how to take the check itself does not.

So if I'm getting this right, you believe that orikan's ability only makes the enemy move as if they were in terrain, while the C'tan's ability makes all difficult terrain dangerous, and as that C'tan's ability does not explicitly affect movement, no penalties are added to units that are simply moving, as long as they are in open ground.

This has a few non-intuitive consequences that I'd like to remind you of:

1. Ghazzy cannot roll 3d6 when moving normally.
2. Vehicles are unaffected by the ability, as they only take dangerous terrain tests when actually encountering difficult terrain. This also applies to jump infantry, jetbikes, and jump pack troops. So all the ability affects is infantry, cavalry, and beasts.
3. The movement through cover rules change completely and are nigh-unintelligible to the average player. Units that aren't in difficult terrain can't enter difficult terrain while the ability is active. In addition, in the section entitled "Moving Through Difficult Terrain," the same terms you claim to be different than "moving through difficult terrain" are used ubiquitously. Imagine how confused your average gamer is by now.

Again. A fundamental idiom when it comes to understanding a subject from a text is to assume that the author is coherent, and does not write conflicting statements. If you want the above three points to be true, then go ahead and play that way. But make sure to let your opponent know (especially when playing against orks and necrons) that you are interpreting the rules in such a way. No opponent I have ever played against in the last two years has ever held the interpretations you hold, and I haven't even heard it here on YMDC until now, which I think is a telling statement.

Kitzz wrote:So if I'm getting this right, you believe that orikan's ability only makes the enemy move as if they were in terrain, while the C'tan's ability makes all difficult terrain dangerous, and as that C'tan's ability does not explicitly affect movement, no penalties are added to units that are simply moving, as long as they are in open ground.

Yes, that is the argument

This has a few non-intuitive consequences that I'd like to remind you of:

1. Ghazzy cannot roll 3d6 when moving normally.

No, not at all. Ghaz has S&P, thus always moving as if through difficult terrain (thus taking difficult terrain tests, exactly like Temporal snares) and he also has Move through cover (as an IC). Move through cover gives you the ability to roll 3d6 when making diffuclt terrain tests. None of this need involve actual terrain, and would all work the same as with termporal snares

2. Vehicles are unaffected by the ability, as they only take dangerous terrain tests when actually encountering difficult terrain. This also applies to jump infantry, jetbikes, and jump pack troops. So all the ability affects is infantry, cavalry, and beasts.

Yes, that is exactly what I and others have been saying. Only infantry, cavalry and beasts have a movement penalty associated with difficult terrain, and the effect only affects movement, so they are only ones affected by it.

3. The movement through cover rules change completely and are nigh-unintelligible to the average player. Units that aren't in difficult terrain can't enter difficult terrain while the ability is active. In addition, in the section entitled "Moving Through Difficult Terrain," the same terms you claim to be different than "moving through difficult terrain" are used ubiquitously. Imagine how confused your average gamer is by now.

I have no idea what that last one even means.

Again, the only change effected by temporal snares is that infantry, cavalry, and beasts (and walkers, who move as if infantry, see?) will have to make a difficult terrain test to determine their move. That difficult terrain test could be modified as normal by Move Through Cover, or any other effect that changes how difficult terrain rolls are made. However, they are not in difficult terrain.

That difficult terrain test could be modified as normal by Move Through Cover, or any other effect that changes how difficult terrain rolls are made. However, they are not in difficult terrain.

Um so like writhing worldscape that could change the way you roll to include a roll that could kill you? I get your line of thought I just don't know anyone locally at least who plays it that way.

Nebulas1 wrote:

That difficult terrain test could be modified as normal by Move Through Cover, or any other effect that changes how difficult terrain rolls are made. However, they are not in difficult terrain.

Um so like writhing worldscape that could change the way you roll to include a roll that could kill you? I get your line of thought I just don't know anyone locally at least who plays it that way.

People misread the rule first time they come across it. Then group think takes over.

I have no idea what that last one even means.

Again, the only change effected by temporal snares is that infantry, cavalry, and beasts (and walkers, who move as if infantry, see?) will have to make a difficult terrain test to determine their move. That difficult terrain test could be modified as normal by Move Through Cover, or any other effect that changes how difficult terrain rolls are made. However, they are not in difficult terrain.

If you don't have any idea what it means then you shouldn't be arguing the point, as it's the basis of your argument. Read the section I mentioned again, and understand that it is labeled "moving through difficult terrain." You are taking pieces of that definition of game space and saying that certain parts don't apply to those peices, while others still do. You are defining the game in a way I have never seen anyone define it. It's akin to someone saying that because a given vehicle can't move on the board from reserve because the model itself is too large, that it can't move on the table at all. It is alien to me. It creates a ton of minor, confusing wording issues across the game that have non-intuitive repercussions.

If you don't understand the main argument for a person's position, try to understand it. I gave you that very courtesy, as I would hope is evident.

They stack. Easy way to avoid it reserve. Congrats you spent a ton of points for nothing.

Forcing an opponent to reserve their army when they wouldnt otherwise do so is not "nothing"

You still make all difficult terrain dangerous, making it even easier to work out where their reinforcements, when they arrive in dribs and drabs and are thus easier to pick off, are going to come in from.

Kitzz wrote:

I have no idea what that last one even means.

Again, the only change effected by temporal snares is that infantry, cavalry, and beasts (and walkers, who move as if infantry, see?) will have to make a difficult terrain test to determine their move. That difficult terrain test could be modified as normal by Move Through Cover, or any other effect that changes how difficult terrain rolls are made. However, they are not in difficult terrain.

If you don't have any idea what it means then you shouldn't be arguing the point, as it's the basis of your argument. Read the section I mentioned again, and understand that it is labeled "moving through difficult terrain." You are taking pieces of that definition of game space and saying that certain parts don't apply to those peices, while others still do. You are defining the game in a way I have never seen anyone define it. It's akin to someone saying that because a given vehicle can't move on the board from reserve because the model itself is too large, that it can't move on the table at all. It is alien to me. It creates a ton of minor, confusing wording issues across the game that have non-intuitive repercussions.

If you don't understand the main argument for a person's position, try to understand it. I gave you that very courtesy, as I would hope is evident.

I was saying, in a slightly nicer way, that your words were jibberish. And since you referenced your jibberish in telling me why I am wrong, that is also unhelpful.

So why don't you re-write them (#3) in an intelligible way, and then we can discuss it politely.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

cgage00 wrote:They stack.

There is no basis for that statement.

I really don't understand what you are getting at Sir_Prometheus. I understand what you are saying, I just don't see how your argument holds any water.

I do not see any distinction between "counts as moving through difficult terrain" and "counts as difficult terrain". If I recall correctly there are 3 types of terrain:

open
difficult
dangerous

What is the difference between them if stationary? None at all. What about when moving? Well that's where the effects of each come into play.

Really? Really?

A piece of terrain has several properties. Inflicting a difficult terrain roll is only one of those properties.

Several things in the game inflict difficult terrain penalties without causing the unit to actually count as in terrain. Slow and Purposeful and Sanctuary are two examples.

Having to take a difficult terrain test is not at all the the same thing as being in difficult terrain. Moving as if within difficult terrain means taking that difficult terrain test. That is completely different than being in the terrain.

You just want to declare that "difficult terrain test" is the same thing as being in difficult terrain. There's no reason to think that.

It's like you want to say being wet is the same thing as swimming. Well, you can't swim without being wet, but you sure can be wet without swimming.

Sir prometheus how in any way does moving as if in difficult terrain indicate only a terrain test? IF it said take a difficult terrain test the same as moving in difficult terrain I'd understand and they would have just said "take a difficult terrain test", however it indeed says counts a moving through difficult terrain which means for all intensive purposes you are in fact moving through difficult terrain.

Nebulas1 wrote:which means for all intensive purposes you are in fact moving through difficult terrain.

No. The Terrain is still Open Ground. Nothing has changed that. Neither Orkian nor Writhing Worldscape requires units moving through Open Ground to take a Dangerous Terrain Test. I have $10. I treat it like a $100. GW has a sale, 10% off purchases of $100 or more. I spend my $10. It does not matter what I treat my $10 like, it is not $100, so I will not get the 10% discount.

I'm not trying to declare that taking a terrain test is the same as being in difficult terrain. As you showed there are other things in the game that can have the same effect. But that's also part of my point...the rules of taking a terrain test are covered in the section "moving through terrain". Regardless of what is making them take the test the outcome is the same since they follow the rules of moving through terrain.

And to highlight: when vehicles move through difficult terrain they count as moving through dangerous terrain. Would you say they don't take the test because it counts as dangerous, but it isn't actually?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and I know I'm a page late but I figured I would expand on a point made earlier about moving being the operator. It can't be.

Say I have a leman russ battletank. It's in open ground. Now say that open ground counts as difficult terrain. What difference is there between the 2 if the tank remains stationary? There is none whatsoever. Nothing would change. The only difference occurs if I try to move the tank. Without movement the whole point becomes moot.

Lukus83 wrote:Regardless of what is making them take the test the outcome is the same since they follow the rules of moving through terrain.

Worldscape makes all TVs turn to channel 11. Orkian makes me count my window as a TV. The combination does not mean my window turns to channel 11.

Lukus83 wrote:And to highlight: when vehicles move through difficult terrain they count as moving through dangerous terrain. Would you say they don't take the test because it counts as dangerous, but it isn't actually?

No, because page 57 says unequivocally that they have to.

Please don't try to bring real world situations into GW logic. It has already been shown on page 1 of this thread that "counts as" is essentially the same as "is". Too many issues arise otherwise.

And you realize that page 57 proves my point. It's an example to follow by that gives a pretty good pointer at the intention of "counts as".

And at this point I bow out. Things feel like they are going round in circles and I don't even plan on using the Orikan and Ctan combo. Will leave it to others to debate.

Lukus83 wrote:
And at this point I bow out. Things feel like they are going round in circles and I don't even plan on using the Orikan and Ctan combo. Will leave it to others to debate.

I do ha!

Even if it does get FAQ'd it will still be a useful combo. For instance, they might not even make it into cover in the first turn from moving through terrain, and even if they do one in 6 will take a wound.

Moving away from the stacking thing, since it has gone in a big boring cricle - a question.

Since the C'tan will make all difficult INTO dangerous (no debate there), and if already dangerous you fail on a 1 or 2, then I take it jump packers will fail on a 1 or 2 if they jump into difficult terrain, since difficult is always dangerous for them in the first place, then the nasty C'tan makes it uber dangerous?

Yep, jumping or driving into difficult terrain is not a great idea....

Thus why, if you do tend to play on boards with a decent amount of difficult terrain, it's actually not a bad choice to take with a C'Tan.

If it should be FAQ'd (and it's going to need to be) that the whole Tremorstave Quake effect and Orikan's first turn effect synergize with a C'Tan, all for the better.

Lukus83 wrote:I'm not trying to declare that taking a terrain test is the same as being in difficult terrain. As you showed there are other things in the game that can have the same effect. But that's also part of my point...the rules of taking a terrain test are covered in the section "moving through terrain". Regardless of what is making them take the test the outcome is the same since they follow the rules of moving through terrain.

And to highlight: when vehicles move through difficult terrain they count as moving through dangerous terrain. Would you say they don't take the test because it counts as dangerous, but it isn't actually?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and I know I'm a page late but I figured I would expand on a point made earlier about moving being the operator. It can't be.

Say I have a leman russ battletank. It's in open ground. Now say that open ground counts as difficult terrain. What difference is there between the 2 if the tank remains stationary? There is none whatsoever. Nothing would change. The only difference occurs if I try to move the tank. Without movement the whole point becomes moot.

Wow, you're literally making the "if a tree falls in the forest, and no one is around to hear it, it doesn't make a noise argument"

Well, yes, it does make a noise, so there.

Lukus83 wrote:It has already been shown on page 1 of this thread that "counts as" is essentially the same as "is". Too many issues arise otherwise.

If one of these abilities said "Open Ground counts as Difficult Terrain" or "Open Ground is Difficult Terrain", then, yes, they would be the same. However, neither of these abilities affects Open Ground. Worldscape only affects Difficult and/or Dangerous Terrain. Orkian only affects models.

Nebulas1 wrote:However "moving as if in" and moving that "treats open terrain as difficult" still share the same penalty, which when the C'tan is alive happens to include dangerous terrain checks.

No, page 14 tells me the penalties for moving through terrain. Worldscape only tells me of an additional penalty for moving through Difficult and/or Dangerous Terrain, not Open Ground, no matter how I treat the Open Ground. If one Eldar model attacks a Space Marine with a weapon that treats the Marine like he has no Armour, does another Eldar model get to treat the Marine like he has no Armour either? No, because the first Eldar's weapon does not affect the Marine, no matter what he treats the Marine like. If one ability makes a unit move in Open Ground as though in Difficult Terrain, does it do anything to Open Ground? No. If another ability affects Difficult Terrain, would it do anything to Open Ground? No, no matter how any unit treats it. Worldscape makes all Difficult Terrain Dangerous. Orkian makes me count Open Ground as Difficult. The combination does not mean that Open Ground is now Difficult.

Ghenghis Jon wrote:Worldscape only tells me of an additional penalty for moving through Difficult and/or Dangerous Terrain, not Open Ground, no matter how I treat the Open Ground.

Except Orikan quite clearly states that open ground is difficult terrain.

DarknessEternal wrote:Except Orikan quite clearly states that open ground is difficult terrain.

NECRON CODEX, pg 57, TEMPORAL SNARES: "During the first game turn, all enemy units that move count as moving through difficult terrain. If they are actually moving through difficult terrain, then a unit can move the lowest D6 result of their difficult terrain test, rather than the highest."

No, it does not. If it said, "all terrain that enemy units move through counts as difficult", then, yes, Open Ground would be altered to Difficult Terrain. However, it does not say that. Temporal Snares affects the unit, not the terrain.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2570047a_Necrons_v1.1.pdf
Sorry for the thread-necro but this came up on the top of a Google result and thought it needed a proper ending.
Go read.

Page 4. Bottom left.

Q: Does Writhing Worldscape cause every model moving through
difficult terrain, moving as if in difficult terrain and counting as
moving through difficult terrain to take a Dangerous Terrain test?
(p41)
A: Yes.

Welcome to over a year later? IE this thread was before that FAQ.

Please don't revive threads that died out over a year ago -