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I'm running some quick math hammer between a single banshee and a single Harlequin both with doom support against a blood angel assault marines. Assuming that the Harlequin is using doom to re roll everything that isn't rending as that bypasses the double layered saves. On the charge of course!

I'm also dividing the total number of expected kills to get expected kills per point invested.

1 Banshee : 3 attacks on the charge * 1/2 to hit * 1/3+(2/3*1/3) wounds with doom re rolls = .83 dead fnp marines

or 1 Banshee = .052 kills per point

1 Harlequin : 4 attacks on the charge * 2/3 to hit * 1/6+[5/6*1/6 + 5/6*1/3*1/3*1/2] rending wounds and normal wounds going through saves with doom support re rolling all non rends= 0.94 dead fnp marines

or 1 Harlequin = 0.042 kills per point

So yea, this is very very situational, but the banshees are *technically* more points efficient at killing FNP Marines, but perhaps not by a justifiable amount. The issue with Harlies to me is that you are spending 22 points per basic model as opposed to 16 points.

I also agree that neither of these units are very great for ultra competitive lists... Oh well.


EDIT 1: I ran another set of math hammer of both squads against regular marines, using the same basic formula. Banshees still beat out Harlequins point for bloody point.
Banshee still has 0.052 kills per point
Harlequin has 0.0505

so its really really close, but still in Banshees favor. I ran 2 different tests for Harlequins, one re rolling all non rending wounds, and the other re rolling only failed to wounds. Against regular marines its actually more effective to only re roll failed to wounds. So those numbers are with that in mind. Of course with such a small difference in performance per point this is totally negligible.

Still though, 180 points of Banshees should be killing slightly more than 180 points of Harlequins

Please don't post things like this on Dakka. Thanks.
reds8n

I find it troublesome to cook it all down to "who's the better choice". It all depends on the rest of the army - and it's overall synergy.
- You can mathhammer from here and 'till christmas eve', and you'd still be leaving out decisive factors in the calculations.

When i look over the Harlies and the Banshees entries, i see these as soft-counter and hard-counter units. Each in their own leagues. In contrast of akaean's most killy-per-point, it's the synergy that makes the real difference, and hence, the choice cooks down to filling the gaps in the army. If you lack the overall, flexible killing power, you take the Harlies. If you lack the anti-MEQ/FnP, you field the Banshees.

Eventually it all comes down to the actual game, where mathhammer doesn't leave anything more than statistics. You cannot determine if you get a better or a worse dice at a crucial moment. You cannot determine if whether or not your Farseers key-powers goes off, or some Libby hoods the living feth out of it. You cannot determine if your transport suffered a crucial hit, and so forth.

akaean wrote:I'm running some quick math hammer between a single banshee and a single Harlequin both with doom support against a blood angel assault marines. Assuming that the Harlequin is using doom to re roll everything that isn't rending as that bypasses the double layered saves. On the charge of course!

I'm also dividing the total number of expected kills to get expected kills per point invested.

1 Banshee : 3 attacks on the charge * 1/2 to hit * 1/3+(2/3*1/3) wounds with doom re rolls = .83 dead fnp marines

or 1 Banshee = .052 kills per point

1 Harlequin : 4 attacks on the charge * 2/3 to hit * 1/6+[5/6*1/6 + 5/6*1/3*1/3*1/2] rending wounds and normal wounds going through saves with doom support re rolling all non rends= 0.94 dead fnp marines

or 1 Harlequin = 0.042 kills per point

So yea, this is very very situational, but the banshees are *technically* more points efficient at killing FNP Marines, but perhaps not by a justifiable amount. The issue with Harlies to me is that you are spending 22 points per basic model as opposed to 16 points.

I also agree that neither of these units are very great for ultra competitive lists... Oh well.


EDIT 1: I ran another set of math hammer of both squads against regular marines, using the same basic formula. Banshees still beat out Harlequins point for bloody point.
Banshee still has 0.052 kills per point
Harlequin has 0.0505

so its really really close, but still in Banshees favor. I ran 2 different tests for Harlequins, one re rolling all non rending wounds, and the other re rolling only failed to wounds. Against regular marines its actually more effective to only re roll failed to wounds. So those numbers are with that in mind. Of course with such a small difference in performance per point this is totally negligible.

Still though, 180 points of Banshees should be killing slightly more than 180 points of Harlequins

While your math looks right, I will again bring up the cost of the Wave Serpent. It must be factored into the equation. The reason is if you try to walk a unit of Banshees across the board they will get shot down. One Vehicle with Heavy Bolters will bring that unit down to a mangable force before they get to combat. Where the Harlies have a better chance of actually getting into combat with out losing models.

So if you figure 5 Banshees will make it into combat the cost per kill is doubled, where maybe 8 Harlies make it into combat. Either way the cost per kill is higher for the Banshees.

Like others have said you can not just look at it in a vacuum.

I agree with the posts. I also agree that it may vary player to player and region to region, how things work out. My local gaming club tends to run a lot of mech. That being said. I have had more luck with my dice rolling with Harlequins. I agree that since they are rending and not power weapons, that unless you roll a 6 they will get their normal saves. That being said, the Troope Master has a power weapon which are 5 attacks on the charge at stregnth 4. The other thing I like about them is that they have the ability to hit and run and with their high initiative this usually works. So, on the enemies assault phase I will usually disengage to recharge next turn or to run away towards something else, etc. With their 3d6 Disengage, they can be hella fast if they want to get away from something. I do not think it is that hard to get them a ride if you want to. But sometimes, I really don't want to as they are fast anyway, I will usually depending on deployment type, just run them up the board in cover. Thanks again for all but 1 person, who keep placing thought provoking material on this post.

I was merely running these numbers in response to the assertion that Harlequins are more effective at heavy infantry. On a model per model basis, yes the Harlies win. But a kissed Harlie also costs an entire 6 points more than a basic Banshee.

Billinator wrote:Eventually it all comes down to the actual game, where mathhammer doesn't leave anything more than statistics. You cannot determine if you get a better or a worse dice at a crucial moment. You cannot determine if whether or not your Farseers key-powers goes off, or some Libby hoods the living feth out of it. You cannot determine if your transport suffered a crucial hit, and so forth.

I have never understood this argument. Math hammer is not perfect, and after all this is a game of dice not unlike gambling. Math Hammer is still good to know so that you can have an idea of what to expect.

there is a reason in Settlers of Catan its better to have your settlements on '6' and '8' squares. Because those are more likely to be rolled. Knowledge that 6s and 8s are more common than 10s and 4s can be chalked up to Math hammer, and for all I know nothing but 11s and 12s could be rolled all game. But I'm still going to hedge my bets and try to get as many 5-9 squares as I can.

Anyway. I assume both squads have a Wave Serpent, as I would only ever consider running Banshees in a mechanized list. Banshees buy their own ride, Harlies take a DAVU squads Serpent while they go in a Falcon. Both squads should be in a Serpent one way or another.

I assumed charging because thats where harlies are strongest. Banshees still get i10, and they still get 3 power weapon attacks from the 5 point acrobatic. Harlies however lose s4, and they lose an initiative point (and may go after AG stealers!)

The main reason that I wasn't counting the Serpent, is because it doesn't matter when the squad makes contact. The serpent isn't giving them any extra wounds in close combat. One Banshee will get the same number of expected kills with or without it. The Serpent is a delivery mechanism. Same for the Harlies. And I would never consider running either in a mech list without one. What matters to me is how many of those 3+ 4+ fnp models I can expect to kill on the charge.

Now. All things considered- its really close. The Banshees are only negligibly more cost effective than Harlequins even against their preferred targets. I did this analysis to confront the statement that Harlequins are more effective against heavy infantry than banshees. Which they aren't... barely.

At the very least against the most common opponent (space marines) they are about dead equal in killyness per point. So in a mech list it can come down to taste


EDIT: A few more point for point comparisons

Bansee vs Terminator w/ Storm Shield = 0.017 kills per point
Harlie vs Terminator w/ Storm Shield = 0.020 kills per point
Harlie vs Terminator / Storm Shield and FNP = 0.015 kills per point

Banshee vs GK Termie w/ Sword = 0.026 kills per point
Harlie vs GK Termie w/ Sword = 0.023 Kills per point

Banshee w/o doom vs Marines = 0.031 kills per point
Harlie w/o doom vs Marines= 0.34 kills per point
Harlie w/o doom vs FNP Marines = 0.027 kills per point

Even without doom banshees are still putting up respectable numbers against MEQs. In fact they are only just behind the unaided Harlequins.

If anything this math hammer has lead me to believe that Banshees and Harlequins are more or less equal in terms of offensive power per point spent. But still Banshees are ever so slightly more effective against the enemies that I am most afraid of.

Thanks for your thoughts and all the alternatives on Mathhammer. I frequently forget to use that application.

labmouse42 wrote:A lot of it depends on the meta of your local scene.

I face a lot of FNP MEQ, so the power weapon with every strike on the banshees works better for me. I also find the banshees benefit considerably from doom.

QFT

okay thanks

I have played Eldar for several years now, and I have used both units to great success. I would like everyone to consider not giving the Harlequins their kisses, and giving a troupe master a power weapon. Using this method a skilled Eldar player can choose to assault an opponent's unit and kill -just enough- so the hit back is not too devastating, and then on their opponent's turn the assault is weighted in their favor so the Harlequins win easily and they can Hit & Run away to assault on your next turn without the threat of being shot down.

That is a tactic the Banshees just can not do.

Banshee squads need all kinds of assistance. They need a transport or else they will never make it to where they want to be, not even with cover saves. They need the squad to be doomed or else they will not cause enough wounds, and with all the psychic defense in armies today that could simply not happen. Depending on whether or not you got doom off, or on the size of the unit, the Banshees usually need some firepower to soften up the unit.

They cannot survive a prolonged assault and they cannot take too much fire power. This usually means you end up trading your banshees for one your opponents units, and as long as they make it there alive you can usually trade up. But the simple fact is this, Eldar players cannot afford to make trades.

Every eldar unit needs to work together in order to equal a sum greater than its individual parts; which close combat unit is best at doing this? Sadly, it's Striking Scorpions with Prince Yriel. But you can make any of the units work so long as you know what you're doing.

I think Akaen's numbers show them to be close enough in killiness against T4 that in choosing one or the other I'd look at other factors. Ignoring difficult terrain is especially cool I you play against GK Libbys or Necrons. It also gives you options to surprise the enemy by unloading on the other side of terrain and proceeding to sprint full speed into him.

The invulnerable save is huge once again if you fight GKs. Every unit's return attacks can severely cripple Banshees. In Akaen's math the Terminators we fought would also cause hefty damage, especially the THSS ones. If both squads have fortune/doom support I know which I'd rather use.

I know it's been mentioned already but fusion pistol options are pretty amazing. 6 Harlies with 2 FPs in a Falcon would help I draw fire to soak up with Holofields and then it can move into position while it is shaken, dropping Harlies the next turn to melta/charge. This is a tactic other units in the codex can't attempt.

I agree with akaen since the majority of my lists include 2 bladestorming dire avenger units. I would only ever consider taking harlequins over banshees if I was playing a footlist. Since I don't have harlequins, I have been using banshees and they have performed well, provided I end up playing MEQ alot of my games anyway. FNP is always a concern for me since double guide/doom bladestorm usually doesn't finish off a full squad of MEQ with FNP. I hate FNP probably more than multiple small dire avenger lists, which is hard to beat in my book.

@Akaean
Please don't get me wrong. I wasn't trying to disregard the fact that mathhammer is useful. I was only trying to stress on about, that synergy is important as well.

But i do agree to what you wrote.

I hear what you guys are saying, however I do not find it hard to get a squad of harlequins into a vehicle. For instance you can stick a squad of Fire Dragons in a Falcon and give the harlies a ride or do a squad of dire avengers #6 in a falcon. I like having a full squad of dire avengers, but I have had luck with 5-6 and bladestorming. But I usually just use them to grab objectives. So I do not believe that the Harlies not having a ride is a valid enough reason not to take them in a mech list. In addition, I have had them run foot with a mech list and still done pretty well with them.
I always run my Harlies with Kisses, a shadowseer with kisses, troope master with power sword and 2 fusion pistols, even if you do not use the pistols on a vehicle, you can almost guarantee two wounds on shooting before the charge of a unit. I almost always want the Harlies to kill everything before the enemy swing back. I hope that with my consolidation, that they can get into cover after a CC, but the shadowseer also helps them not get shot at by anything too far away.
Just my opinion. With everything being so much cheaper and new armies having so many more deadly things, I like the invuln. over the 4up save too.

You can't ignore the transport issue just because it's "easy" to put the harlies in a serpent. It still causes some sort of issue that needs to be addressed.
We all know in normal circumstances, you can hop in someone elses transport turn 1 with no consequences. But you still have to do physically do it.
What if someone steals the initiative on you, drop pods in a big shooty squad and takes out 3/4ths of the harlies? It wouldn't have happened if they could have started in the transport. Situations like these can't be ignored just because they are rare, when they do happen it will affect you.
Even if you deploy in a way where this can't happen, it is still affecting your gameplay. You had to deploy a certain way to make up for the flaw of the harlies. Meaning that it is a valid thing to think about when comparing the two.

racta wrote:You can't ignore the transport issue just because it's "easy" to put the harlies in a serpent. It still causes some sort of issue that needs to be addressed.
We all know in normal circumstances, you can hop in someone elses transport turn 1 with no consequences. But you still have to do physically do it.
What if someone steals the initiative on you, drop pods in a big shooty squad and takes out 3/4ths of the harlies? It wouldn't have happened if they could have started in the transport. Situations like these can't be ignored just because they are rare, when they do happen it will affect you.
Even if you deploy in a way where this can't happen, it is still affecting your gameplay. You had to deploy a certain way to make up for the flaw of the harlies. Meaning that it is a valid thing to think about when comparing the two.

I see what you are saying and depending on who I am playing, I make seure that this can not happen, but I would not say it affects my game play as I usually deploy in a way that everything can work in concert. So I still do not agree with the transport issue. Same could be said for the banshees. When I used to run banshees, I had their transport blown out from under them and then get shot by the armies other squads, because they did not want to worry about the CC units. The same could be said for any CC unit, unless it is in reserve or infiltrating. In my opinion, the benifits you get from the Harlies outways the disadvantages. However this is my opinion. Tactically and survivability wise, they work better in my hands. I have played all 3 CC units many times over the years, I have just been more impressed with Harlies. However, I do miss the days when you could play an entire Harlequin army... Man that Solitare was a badass. I also liked it when the Deth Jesters were not attached to a troope and they could hang back and be the Heavy hitters for the Troopes, but that is a different topic, sorry to go off on a tangeant.

Doomseer for Banshee is mandatory , mandatory if they are to do any damage at all. They simply wont do anything without him.So add that to cost and tactics restriction.

The point is , Harlies under doom is much more choppy then banshees because of wording of doom.You can reroll any rolls to wounds , means you can reroll any non 6'es.
8 Harlies with kisses hits about 16 atacks on MEQ , meaning you have 32 to roll sixes.Each six is dead body + all the rest rolls. Compare that to banshee.

Harlies can fight orks, unlike banshees , more high strenght atacks.Can be be threat to transport with melta and rending atacks (thou they die to explosion often).
So thats more for all comers list, while banshee still specialized in role "we kill MEQ under doom".They can kill MC reliably. If get counter-charged by dread can go away.More survivable and more hitting against Termies.
If they lose to much member can just hit-n-run away with shadowseer , and enemy wont be able to claim kill-point.

Their ininiative difference really isnt that important , both of them hit faster than almost anything if they charge. Thou Wyches will be on par if they will get the charge.Most importantly I6 Grey Knights , All Meq , Stealers all that covered by both units.

The important part is effective fighting force of Harlies is far more expensive then shees. Thats something to consider.
Harlies in Terrain are just as survivable as shees. And their hit-n-run really opens another dimension for fleet assault unit.

So all in all in my opinion Harlies are better , but pay premiere cost for being that.

Keep in mind thatD awn of War causes problems when wanting to swap rides with people.

jbunny wrote:Keep in mind thatD awn of War causes problems when wanting to swap rides with people.

Not to a huge degree, you do not have to start in your transport, but no one else can either. So if you move the vehicle 6" onto the board on turn 1 or if it is from a troop like DA you could deploy it and then when the Harlies walk on they can embark onto the vehicle as long as within 2". True it can not move further that turn, but no one will likely be shooting at it turn 1 anyway.

I think its situational. However if i had to pick id take banshees, they are lovely with that I10 and power weapons, doom helps and so does an exarch. I never run more than a squad of 6 with exarch so im usually looking about 130-140 points not too bad, and they can take out a 10 man tac squad relatively easy (and with luck still be tied up for another round to avoid being rapid fired).

Scorpions!!!!!! ok so i agree that they are horrid vs grey knights, but every other army i love having them against. Even vs space marines, out flank scorpions onto a devastator squad or a tac squad sitting on an objective, overall the scorpions should come out on top. (i also always run the biting blade forgoing the claw.) against armies offering long range shooting run into an artillery piece or sationary tank and watch that biting blade do its work (4 attacks hit automatically at str 8). Lastly against armies where it applies use them against large units of inferior guys, ork boys, gaunts, guard blobs, where higher I and lots and lots of attacks can turn the battle for you. (and survive via 3+ saves)

Oh and of course possibly the main reason i dislike harlies, unless i run a council of some kind i almost never run fortune in my mech list, instead opting for doom and guide. This limits Harlies survivability in close combat and consquently i just find them to be too many points for how easily they get smacked about.

ALSO!!! Doom means all reroll to wound yes, however if your harlies wound on 4's then they can only reroll rolls that are 1-3 (ie arnt 4's) not anything that isnt a 6! (sorry just had to point that out cause it bothered me)

Harlequins are overall beter because they are soo much better in foot armies. The important debate is wich is better in mechdar

Well, which one is better can be determined as well by what version of the FAQ you are using in your games. If you are at a tournament and they use the INAT faq for Banshee masks then Banshees can do well. But if you are using the ones only from the GW website and the main 5th edition rulebook then Banshees will suck if they try to charge anyone in cover.

Their initiative will be dropped to 1 because of the way assulting into cover works now so they will probably die before they get a chance to attack.

I've found that not every tournament uses the INAT faq so sometimes my banshees suck and sometimes they are great.

Deadlytoaster wrote:IScorpions!!!!!! ok so i agree that they are horrid vs grey knights, but every other army i love having them against. Even vs space marines, out flank scorpions onto a devastator squad or a tac squad sitting on an objective, overall the scorpions should come out on top. (i also always run the biting blade forgoing the claw.) against armies offering long range shooting run into an artillery piece or sationary tank and watch that biting blade do its work (4 attacks hit automatically at str 8). Lastly against armies where it applies use them against large units of inferior guys, ork boys, gaunts, guard blobs, where higher I and lots and lots of attacks can turn the battle for you. (and survive via 3+ saves)

I have used Scorpions, many times, but in 5th edition, even against IG, I find their survivability poor. In a big squad of IG say a platoon of 20 or 20 Boyz, you are going to kill a bunch of them however not likely all, when they hit back and the Commisar or sergeant or Nob will have power weapon/fist/claw and will negate any saving throw at all and your squad will be hurt or wiped out.

As for the harlies I agree that the 5up save is harder to hit than 3 or 4 up, but it is invulnerable. That is hard to beat. Having played Orks that only have a 5 or 6 up save that is not invuln, I think it is still pretty good. But this is my opinion.