Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I use then in my Mordian infantry army, but only because Vendettas don't really fit the theme of the army. It's not that HWT are bad, it's just that Vendettas and metlavets are so underpriced that HWT just seem clumsy and inefficient in comparison. Between the variants of russ, Vendettas, chimeras with vets, manticores, hydras, there's nothing really that warrants using HWT.

I have found Heavy Weapons *Squads* to be very durable due to cover and target saturation. Seriously, a LOT of HWS and your opponent can't kill them all. A LRBT can be taken down by a single Tau rail tank, a single DE skiff with DL, or a single Tryanid squiggly thing (I don't know Nids very well). A LRBT's weight in HWT on the other hand, may be easier to kill, but certainly takes longer.
When your opponent has fewer, more expensive, models, then giving them too many targets is certainly worth it. HWS are about volume of fire, and number of bodies.

Plus they're troops.

To the OP (if you're still reading this zombie thread): Make modular HWT so you can play around and figure out what you like.

maceria wrote:I have found Heavy Weapons *Squads* to be very durable due to cover and target saturation. Seriously, a LOT of HWS and your opponent can't kill them all. A LRBT can be taken down by a single Tau rail tank, a single DE skiff with DL, or a single Tryanid squiggly thing (I don't know Nids very well). A LRBT's weight in HWT on the other hand, may be easier to kill, but certainly takes longer.
When your opponent has fewer, more expensive, models, then giving them too many targets is certainly worth it. HWS are about volume of fire, and number of bodies.

Plus they're troops.

To the OP (if you're still reading this zombie thread): Make modular HWT so you can play around and figure out what you like.

I get your point, but you don't have to kill all the HWs to make them useless. Kill 1/3 of them and there's a chance the whole squad is running for the hills
And I personally have my troops hunting vehicles and my vehicles hunting troops. To me, they have different roles than the LRBT. So to me, I don't replace
one for the other.

Yeah I definitely see how HWT's are expensive - especially when compared to Vets with melta in a chimera.
I think it may be a problem with the list I am running: The Straken CSS (w/lascannon) behind a 30-50 man power blob w/lord commissar all with autocannons and power weapons. Then Chimera Vets going tank hunting. Griffons anti-infantry. LRBT anti-tank or infantry.
I just wanted some more anti-tank weapons in this list as what i've been finding is that once my vets die and my LRBT is destroyed (they almost invariably die) I am left with very little other anti-tank options if any remain. The autocannons in my main power blob sometimes aren't enough and means the whole blob has to shoot with them, wasting 50 or so lasgun shots if it's the last thing standing on the field (which it often is).
This is why I thought a HWT would lure opponents into attacking the blob (which is what I want) and give some anti-tank options - the BS3 problem elimnated somewhat by sitting it back with the Straken CCS and ordering to 'twin-link' firing at vehicles.
But as someone pointed out - you can get Melta Vets at pretty much the same price. And yes - HWT's die easily.
I'm kinda torn now on what to do now be honest. I think maybe just using the 100 or so points on 2 extra infantry squads with a lascannon in each instead. Kind of makes sense as you get extra wounds and makes them far more durable...

FifteenHours wrote:The autocannons in my main power blob sometimes aren't enough and means the whole blob has to shoot with them, wasting 50 or so lasgun shots if it's the last thing standing on the field (which it often is).

Firstly, if you're going to shoot heavy weapons with blobs at all, limit yourself to only shooting with them for the first two turns (unless they're defending something). It takes discipline to make it work. Otherwise, as you note, you're spending several hundred points just so a few dozen points of guns get to shoot, and that's a bad thing.

Secondly, if autocannons aren't cutting it, then take lascannons. It's easy to look at the "BS3" and "Heavy 1" and dismiss them out of hand. Once you look to the "AP2" (which makes them up to 50% killier against things with a 5++ and 200% killier against things that were relying on a 3+ save), and the "S9" (which makes them penetrate AV 12 200% more per hit), and you can see that if effectiveness in a short time period against tough targets is what you're looking for, then the lascannon is what you need.

Well the power blob usually sits on an objective. Starken and the Lord Commissar is what really makes it hard to crack.
When it's not doing that, it's trying to distract the enemy while chimeravets go and pop transports or tanks. It just has a field presence in the middle of the table. The autocannons in the power blob gives it some flexibility when defending the objectives as they are capable at dispatching infantry and light vehicles. I'm just worried that replacing them with lascannons would give less anti-infantry capability.
But on the other hand I definitely see where your coming from, since the blob still has 26 lasguns. Rapid firing that's 52 shots. With "First Rank..Fire!" orders that's 78 shots. That volume of lasgun shots has potent anti-infantry capability in itself. I addition I always have a Griffon (love them, they never seem to fail me and are dirt cheap for what they do) or two along with LRBT (or demolisher), so I am left thinking that putting autocannons in the power blob might be a bit of overkill on the anti-infantry element of my army. Maybe I should indeed replace with lascannons, since I already seem to have excessive anti-infantry units.
Thanks!

For my list i was thinking this:
Holding the rear objectives/fire support:
2 Autocannon squads
20 man blob with commisar
Rear armor- 2 Manticores, 1 hydra flak tank
Offensive
CCS with Straken/lascannon
30 man blob/commisar/PW/ x2 lascannon
x3 Vendettas
SWS with 3 melta in each

If points allow:
I would like to take another power blob and/or a squad of ogryns to fight by strakens side.

I think this is an effective use of HWS but im not sure on my list dynamics and composition...

I personally wouldn't use multiple blobs in my list because I put all the points into a main blob which is virtually impossible to crack due to the Lord Commissar and Straken CCS always close by. It gives the blob leadership 10, stubborn, counter-attack and furious charge. It will virtually never fail morale checks.
If anyone tries to charge the blob it will get tied up in close combat and Straken can charge in next turn and kick some ass. Likewise if anyone gets too close they will get hit by a hail of 70+ lasgun shots and autocannon shots.
My Griffons are parked behind the blob, so if anyone tries to deep strike and destroy them, Straken can usually charge or the blob can turn around and fire on them...or both.
Therefore, don't really need another blob because my blob is there to distract the enemy and soak up the damage. It's the anvil. My vets and LRBT's (and to an extent griffons) are the hammer. I think if I ran multiple blobs then my power blob wouldn't fulfil it's role as a distraction as well.

Also, I would never run SWS as Vets represent much better value.
Same with Ogryns. I think a power weapon blob is more effective for the points cost. Or i'd just whack a commissar with a power weapon in with Straken's CCS if I wanted extra close combat ability.

Never take mortars, never take heavy bolters, missile launchers are "okay" but the inferior choice to autocannons for anti-tank.

lonedrow02 wrote:For my list i was thinking this:
Holding the rear objectives/fire support:
2 Autocannon squads
20 man blob with commisar
Rear armor- 2 Manticores, 1 hydra flak tank
Offensive
CCS with Straken/lascannon
30 man blob/commisar/PW/ x2 lascannon
x3 Vendettas
SWS with 3 melta in each

If points allow:
I would like to take another power blob and/or a squad of ogryns to fight by strakens side.

I think this is an effective use of HWS but im not sure on my list dynamics and composition...

If one blob is offensive, leave their lascannons at home. You're probably going to be moving it too much
to use the lascannons.
I'd suggest 2 hydras.

ph34r wrote:Never take mortars, never take heavy bolters, missile launchers are "okay" but the inferior choice to autocannons for anti-tank.

And this ^! Couldn't have said it better myself.

alarmingrick wrote:

lonedrow02 wrote:For my list i was thinking this:
Holding the rear objectives/fire support:
2 Autocannon squads
20 man blob with commisar
Rear armor- 2 Manticores, 1 hydra flak tank
Offensive
CCS with Straken/lascannon
30 man blob/commisar/PW/ x2 lascannon
x3 Vendettas
SWS with 3 melta in each

If points allow:
I would like to take another power blob and/or a squad of ogryns to fight by strakens side.

I think this is an effective use of HWS but im not sure on my list dynamics and composition...

If one blob is offensive, leave their lascannons at home. You're probably going to be moving it too much
to use the lascannons.
I'd suggest 2 hydras.

ph34r wrote:Never take mortars, never take heavy bolters, missile launchers are "okay" but the inferior choice to autocannons for anti-tank.

And this ^! Couldn't have said it better myself.

Thanks. Thats so obvious but i didnt even realize it! Swap the lascannons to the defensive blob...
Also i forgot the PCS squad that would be issuing "Incoming!" orders to the defensive blob... The above tactic of a mega power blob seems really interesting....

I love mortars! But you need a lot of them to be effective.

maceria wrote:I love mortars! But you need a lot of them to be effective.

It's not like guard is short on low strength shooting. A guard unit with say FRFSRF will do a whole lot more than a mortar team at cleaning out hordes.

I agree with lots of HWS though. I tend to run at least 3 teams as this makes the investment in a Lord Commissar worthwhile. You can get all them team in his leadership bubble and attach him to one team to give them stubborn. Auto/las cannon for me every time.

ruminator wrote:

maceria wrote:I love mortars! But you need a lot of them to be effective.

It's not like guard is short on low strength shooting. A guard unit with say FRFSRF will do a whole lot more than a mortar team at cleaning out hordes.

I agree with lots of HWS though. I tend to run at least 3 teams as this makes the investment in a Lord Commissar worthwhile. You can get all them team in his leadership bubble and attach him to one team to give them stubborn. Auto/las cannon for me every time.

Auto cannons are amazing. I love mortars for doing things like popping a DE skiff, then pinning the dude inside with a second barrage. Neither of which FRFSRF can do.

Oh wait, I forgot. *ahem* Pinning doesn't work on Space Marines, therefore mortars are completely useless, and noone should ever ever use them.

All snark aside, everyone has their own advice. You should listen to all of it, but take none of it as gospel. Especially mine. After some time, you'll have your own style, and your own advice to give.

lonedrow02 wrote:

ph34r wrote:Never take mortars, never take heavy bolters, missile launchers are "okay" but the inferior choice to autocannons for anti-tank.

And this ^! Couldn't have said it better myself.

Thanks. Thats so obvious but i didnt even realize it! Swap the lascannons to the defensive blob...
Also i forgot the PCS squad that would be issuing "Incoming!" orders to the defensive blob... The above tactic of a mega power blob seems really interesting....

FifteenHours wrote:Well the power blob usually sits on an objective. Starken and the Lord Commissar is what really makes it hard to crack.
When it's not doing that, it's trying to distract the enemy while chimeravets go and pop transports or tanks. It just has a field presence in the middle of the table. The autocannons in the power blob gives it some flexibility when defending the objectives as they are capable at dispatching infantry and light vehicles. I'm just worried that replacing them with lascannons would give less anti-infantry capability.
But on the other hand I definitely see where your coming from, since the blob still has 26 lasguns. Rapid firing that's 52 shots. With "First Rank..Fire!" orders that's 78 shots. That volume of lasgun shots has potent anti-infantry capability in itself. I addition I always have a Griffon (love them, they never seem to fail me and are dirt cheap for what they do) or two along with LRBT (or demolisher), so I am left thinking that putting autocannons in the power blob might be a bit of overkill on the anti-infantry element of my army. Maybe I should indeed replace with lascannons, since I already seem to have excessive anti-infantry units.
Thanks!

Depending on what army you're facing lasguns can be basically useless. Against Terminators or army-wide FNP (Blood Angels) you need 36 shots to kill an enemy model. So with your 78 shots (even assuming you can get them all in range) will only give you two kills. Allowing for a cover save, that's the same effect as 6 BS4 plasma shots. And those autocannons aren't going to to do anything against them.

I am a strong advocate of HWT and find them effective. I personally enjoy using missile launchers/auto cannons and find they are most useful. Lascannons are just too expensive to take in bulk, i take only one team. Pfffft rough riders!?!? What you need here sir is this:

^win