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Chiming in with m 2 cents, Lash is not a PSA and there is no roll to hit and there is no "saves" from it.

skycapt44 wrote:So what does that tell us Iranna...people are debating this rule. It's not that I don't disagree I just want clarification so I can learn the game. Simple as that

To me it makes sense it's not a weapon but you use it in the shooting phase. You can't target vehicles and you simply need to take a psy test to use the move.

The problem I see is selective a target
Can you use a psy attack through a kan wall? I don't know
Can the unit you are with shoot at a different target? Unsure

What I take from this is there is no definitive answer in the FAQ or by GW. This was a really specific situation and I appreciate everyone's thoughts including yours Iranna. Just want to be 100% clear since I run a kan wall and face CSM a lot so it is bound to come up again.

I think I'm becoming a parrot so let me clear this up for you one more time.

Yes it is used in the shooting phase.

IT IS NOT A PSYCHIC ATTACK. It is a psychic power. They are two very different things. So yes, you can.

Yes. If it's not a PSA then it does not qualify as shooting so that means the unit may shoot a different target. It's like me dooming a squad with a Farseer and shooting another with the Farseer's unit.

There is a definitive answer which I must've said about 4 times now. They can target your boyz through your kanz, you don't get cover and it is not a PSA.

Iranna.

Iranna wrote:

Draigo wrote:

No but it makes a good case for tournament operators to say you have to roll to hit. Which I have seen so I dont know what to tell you.

Again, there is no case. Lash of submission is in the CSM codex. Not Blood Angels. Not Space Wolves. CSM. As it says in the codex, it is not a PSA.

What you claim to have witnessed was therefore a direct violation of a very simple rule, if I was the chaos player I'd ask for a refund as the TO obviously had very poor English comprehension abilities.

Iranna.

That is not the case. There has been debate on the necron "count as" wording and the shadow in the warp for tyranids. You act like gw precendence hammer has never happen before.

Draigo wrote:

That is not the case. There has been debate on the necron "count as" wording and the shadow in the warp for tyranids. You act like gw precendence hammer has never happen before.

That may be the case but we're not discussing Necrons or their abilities, nor are we discussing Tyranids and their abilities.

The rule wording is very clear. You can't compare two codices different powers because they are just that; different.

GW "precedence" on a completely different race cannot change what has been written in another codex without an Errata or an FAQ. Anything else is pure conjecture on the RAI of Lash of Submission.

Iranna.

skycapt44 wrote:Can you use a psy attack through a kan wall? I don't know

Can you draw LOS through the Kans? (Probably yes.) That is all Lash requires.

Can the unit you are with shoot at a different target? Unsure

Lash is not a shooting attack. It is not a PSA. If a Sorcerer Lashes while attached to a unit, it is irrelevant to the remainder of the unit's shooting. He can Lash A while they shoot B. The Sorcerer's unit is still only shooting one unit because, again, Lash is not a shooting attack.

What I take from this is there is no definitive answer in the FAQ or by GW.

You don't need a FAQ because the answer is all in Lash's wording. If I asked how far jump infantry moves and someone said "13 inches", would we need a FAQ to clear things up?

Ok I got it, that is how I will play. We played it right originally then we were just uncertain. Thanks

Yes it can draw LOS but it can't draw LOS on the entire unit. Most are blocked by kans and other boys in the unit. Does that matter? Or can it be just one single model.

It can be just a single model.

Awesome thanks all.

Similar to shooting, if you can see part of the unit, you have LOS on the unit - since that's how TLOS works in this edition.

Draigo seems to be trying to stir the pot for... no reason at all. Skycapt, please don't be led astray. Draigo's main point seems to be, "GW changed the ruling on other powers that are similar to Lash, and so you should not listen to people who tell you what the current rules are because, in the future, the rules regarding Lash may change."

This is, obviously, pretty fallacious. Lash says:

1) Pick non-vehicle unit visible to caster within 24".
2) Make Psychic test.
3) Move target.

So, if the Chaos Sorcerer who is using Lash has line of sight to the target, it doesn't matter whether or not there are kans in the way, or anything else for that matter. Lash is not a shooting attack, psychic or otherwise.

Actually GW changed the rules and made it NOT a PSA, when they defined *exactly* what a PSA is and what isnt a PSA

It is not stated as a PSA, so it isnt a PSA
It does not have a weapon profile, so it isnt a PSA

Previously, for the whole of 5th, it was a PSA, then the FAQ made it so it wasnt.

There is, currently, zero debate on this. It is NOT a PSA, does not roll to hit, and you have NEVER been able to take ANY form of save against it.

There are multiple applicable FAQs on this, too, as have been quoted.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1830600a_40k_Rulebook_version_1_4.pdf
Page 3 of the main rulebook FAQ both tells us that psychic shooting attacks need to roll to hit, and defines how to identify which psychic powers are psychic shooting attacks.

If you read the description of Lash of Submission, you'll find that it doesn't meet either criteria.

There are some more detailed instructions on how to use Lash, and what it can and can't do, in the CSM FAQ:
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1490289a_FAQ_ChaosSpaceMarines_2009.pdf

Got it,
Pick target with LOS and within 24'. Roll Psychic Test. If passed move models 2D6 in any direction.
Simple enough.

Pretty good move to use against a horde and move them away or towards to get the assault if wanted.
Thanks

It's an enormous help against hordes. Without it, CSM have a really hard time beating horde orks. They just don't have enough firepower unless they can bunch them up and move them backwards.

Tangent wrote:Draigo seems to be trying to stir the pot for... no reason at all. Skycapt, please don't be led astray. Draigo's main point seems to be, "GW changed the ruling on other powers that are similar to Lash, and so you should not listen to people who tell you what the current rules are because, in the future, the rules regarding Lash may change."

This is, obviously, pretty fallacious. Lash says:

1) Pick non-vehicle unit visible to caster within 24".
2) Make Psychic test.
3) Move target.

So, if the Chaos Sorcerer who is using Lash has line of sight to the target, it doesn't matter whether or not there are kans in the way, or anything else for that matter. Lash is not a shooting attack, psychic or otherwise.

No my point is that some places dont care what dakka says not that what has been said is wrong. Dakka isnt the to of every tourney.

Draigo wrote:No my point is that some places dont care what dakka says not that what has been said is wrong. Dakka isnt the to of every tourney.

This isn't about what Dakka says - this is about what the rule books say.
Your "place" doesn't have to follow the rule books but it's a good idea to.

rigeld2 wrote:

Draigo wrote:No my point is that some places dont care what dakka says not that what has been said is wrong. Dakka isnt the to of every tourney.

This isn't about what Dakka says - this is about what the rule books say.
Your "place" doesn't have to follow the rule books but it's a good idea to.

Well whe your the to of every toureny between tampa and miami you can then we can discount what I said. I agree its good to follow rules but doesnt mean it will always be the case in tourney play since tos have final say.

Yes, it is that easy to cast. Unfortunately you play an army with no psychic defense. Many armies can easily shut down this power. If the Lash is messing you up so badly, then kill the psyker first, that's how the game works.

Easier said then done killing the psyker first especially when he rides in rhino with another unit. There are vindicators/oblitorators on the board, those are my priority. I still won the game

Don't forget, your not just moving the unit 2d6 inches in some direction, your also allowed to reconfigure the units footprint.
So on a good roll you could move 30 Boyz right in front of a unit with multiple flamers AND clump them up nice and tight to maximize number of hits caused per flamer (or any other template weapon).
Or you could spread them Boyz out enough so when your Berzerkers charge into the mob, the PK Nob is way in the back and can't move close enough to get into combat on the first round.
Or dump them in dangerous terrain and see how many 1's your opponent rolls in his next movemnt phase.
Got an IG blob squad camping out on the objective in cover? Now their in a tight little circle in the open ready for Pie Plates of Doom.

Lash is a way cool tool and tactic...and i don't even play Chaos.

Now that we know the rules for sure I am very nervous to see what happens next game...keep my distance and kill hat guy fast!