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Not free trade, international trade. Free trade as a concept is a new thing. Plus its not really free. Tariffs are a time honored tradition.

Are we working under mercantilism now? You guys need to actually state a time frame rather then just noting vague things that happening in history.

We had plenty of competition before that. You’ll note the countries exporting themselves are not exporting on free trades terms.

And before that we had a depression and our manufacturing sector was hardly world leading. Our standard of living was also comparatively low next to Europes. The entire point of what you quoted was to note that during the fifties and sixties extreme external events seriously altered the course of American economic development.

If you can’t control trade how on earth do you think you’ll control salaries of executive management? They’ll move. Ask Transocean.

So are you arguing for state repossession of wealth from executives who you think are going stray? Is this just a strawman?

And whats your solution hotstuff?

Federal workplace retraining programmes? Free college for scientific or economically important fields? Other things conservatives hate? Germany is a great study for how to rapidly retrain and maintain an educated workforce dedicated to research and high end manufacturing. They do a lot of stuff Americans refuse to do because the "invisible hand" is supposed to do it for us.

Mostly though, my solution is to try to get people to stop doing what you're doing. Whining that the furriners stole tha mills.

Frazzled wrote:I disagree, of the retirees I know, most like to do something.

Oh, there are several things I like to do, but people are not generally paid to do them.

Frazzled wrote:
Neither party addresses crony capitalism. Neither party addresses the growth of government. Neither party is particularly better than a drunken addict when it concerns the governmental treasury. Neither party really addresses structural changes needed to make the US competitive 50 years from now.

They do, however, do a fantastic job og lining the pockets of supporters.

Did you know that the (inflation adjusted) average pay for a U.S. factory worker in the sixties was about $20.50, it is currently about $20.67.

Clarify please since a UAW blows that $20.67 away. What factory field? Aviation is way to diverse to use since average is like 75K

Jihadin wrote:

Did you know that the (inflation adjusted) average pay for a U.S. factory worker in the sixties was about $20.50, it is currently about $20.67.

Clarify please since a UAW blows that $20.67 away. What factory field? Aviation is way to diverse to use since average is like 75K

As far as I'm aware the statistic includes all work that is classified as factory labor. Presumably it runs the gamut between aviation and bottling and whatnot.

It is just so god damn weird to me that there are so many Americans who seem to favour protectionism.

This is a country that made itself rich by opening up trade with other nations, selling its goods overseas. This is a country where people will frequently tell someone that they just need to go get a job, and that their problems aren't my concern. But now it's also a country where it seems so many people are in favour of closing up trade, hiding behind walls to protect low skilled workers.

It can't just be written off as the kind of talk you typically see in recession, because I heard a fair bit of it before then. I really, honestly can't get my head around it.

sebster wrote:It is just so god damn weird to me that there are so many Americans who seem to favour protectionism.

This is a country that made itself rich by opening up trade with other nations, selling its goods overseas. This is a country where people will frequently tell someone that they just need to go get a job, and that their problems aren't my concern. But now it's also a country where it seems so many people are in favour of closing up trade, hiding behind walls to protect low skilled workers.

It can't just be written off as the kind of talk you typically see in recession, because I heard a fair bit of it before then. I really, honestly can't get my head around it.

Most Americans don't know anything about Economics, but they sure do hear a lot of bs from the right telling them about how often NAFTA feths us. Not that the people doing the telling know much of anything either. Unions are pretty anti free trade as well so the left gets its fair share of idiot populism.

ShumaGorath wrote:Most Americans don't know anything about Economics, but they sure do hear a lot of bs from the right telling them about how often NAFTA feths us. Not that the people doing the telling know much of anything either. Unions are pretty anti free trade as well so the left gets its fair share of idiot populism.

Oh, totally. You get the same over here, vested interests looking to protect their inefficient businesses influencing the right, and unions looking to protect their inefficient work practices influencing the left. They get shot down, because both sides of politics here are completely behind the idea of open trade in all areas. I mean, Australia is probably among the biggest proponents for free trade in the world, and I'm not saying it's weird that other countries aren't as heavily behind it as we are.

It's just that you guys are meant to be more right wing than us. You're the guys that have politicians that honestly argue against the need for a minimum wage. You have presidential candidates calling for a flat tax. You have actual debate over whether Keynesian economics can be used. Just bizarre, far right stuff, accepted as mainstream debate.

But then... protectionism. The one thing where right influenced economics has proven itself absolutely, 100% right, and demonstrated time and again, to improve wealth in both the richer and the poorer country, and suddenly it's generally unpopular. I mean, if you're going to be right wing, why drop when it comes to an issue where you've actually got a decent argument?

Mannahnin wrote:I've never had a godawful wait at the DMV either. A few long ones, but that's why I bring a book.

I cordially invite you to Southern California to accompany me as I register my cars next year.

cordially invite you to Southern California to accompany me as I register my cars next year.

keyword California.

Is is the individual states who do car and driver registration?

Yup.

Monster Rain wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:I've never had a godawful wait at the DMV either. A few long ones, but that's why I bring a book.

I cordially invite you to Southern California to accompany me as I register my cars next year.

Indeed. One of my first introductions to SC, was waiting more than an hour behind some gangbangers, before I knew what gangbangers were. I thought it was reallt strange how they all were wearing blue, including bandannas and caps.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kilkrazy wrote:Is is the individual states who do car and driver registration?

yes.

I'm sure MR will be able to console himself somehow over having moved to a state with a less-efficient DMV. Maybe he'll reflect on the weather.

I thought States == good, Federal == bad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is another case where splitting off from the UK has been a disservice to you.

When I move house, I simply post off my now incorrect licence and car reg with a new address form to the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Centre at Swansea. I get a new set of documents by post a few days later.

I think you can even do it online now.

Kilkrazy wrote:I thought States == good, Federal == bad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is another case where splitting off from the UK has been a disservice to you.

When I move house, I simply post off my now incorrect licence and car reg with a new address form to the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Centre at Swansea. I get a new set of documents by post a few days later.

I think you can even do it online now.

And miss the chance to witness our government in action?
It would have been hard for Texas to split off from the UK.

sebster wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:Most Americans don't know anything about Economics, but they sure do hear a lot of bs from the right telling them about how often NAFTA feths us. Not that the people doing the telling know much of anything either. Unions are pretty anti free trade as well so the left gets its fair share of idiot populism.

Oh, totally. You get the same over here, vested interests looking to protect their inefficient businesses influencing the right, and unions looking to protect their inefficient work practices influencing the left. They get shot down, because both sides of politics here are completely behind the idea of open trade in all areas. I mean, Australia is probably among the biggest proponents for free trade in the world, and I'm not saying it's weird that other countries aren't as heavily behind it as we are.

It's just that you guys are meant to be more right wing than us. You're the guys that have politicians that honestly argue against the need for a minimum wage. You have presidential candidates calling for a flat tax. You have actual debate over whether Keynesian economics can be used. Just bizarre, far right stuff, accepted as mainstream debate.

But then... protectionism. The one thing where right influenced economics has proven itself absolutely, 100% right, and demonstrated time and again, to improve wealth in both the richer and the poorer country, and suddenly it's generally unpopular. I mean, if you're going to be right wing, why drop when it comes to an issue where you've actually got a decent argument?

It likely helps that Australia is surrounded by trade partners with larger economies. Part of the American bubble includes the nascent belief that America is an island and doesn't need the rest of the world. We're giants living on high mountains. We're also seemingly much easier swayed by populist political rhetoric then the rest of the west for some very annoying reason.

I agree with Shuma on the perception that most countries have on the US. Its funny that quite a lot of people think I'm quite well off on a military salary Also doesn't help much when the locals learn most their english slang from MTV and think a majority of americans live a inner city life style to.

Jihadin wrote:I agree with Shuma on the perception that most countries have on the US. Its funny that quite a lot of people think I'm quite well off on a military salary Also doesn't help much when the locals learn most their english slang from MTV and think a majority of americans live a inner city life style to.

I think you read my post backwards.

What? you think I'm the same as everyone?

edit
spelling

Mannahnin wrote:I'm sure MR will be able to console himself somehow over having moved to a state with a less-efficient DMV. Maybe he'll reflect on the weather.

Very true.

The Mexican food and proximity to Stone Brewery also helps. Still, the yearly trip to the DMV makes me pine for the Granite State.

I'm not against trade. I think if we're going to trade with nations that share our values that it can be great.

Free trade and globalization has meant that we're instead shipping good paying jobs overseas to industrial plantations that only destroy the environment and shackle people. The wealthy from each nation benefits but the middle class in America is hurt and the working classes abroad can be devastated as well.

Like I said, I think trade can be a good thing. I think it can be a carrot and can be used to promote liberalization throughout the world. This belief that free markets beget free people is totally flawed and we can see that in places like China. If we offer to increase trade with China in return for some developments on their part then that makes sense, but to just open the flood gates and don't even try to regulate it? That's insanity.

Feel free to dry hump your copy of Lexus and the Olive Tree while calling other people stupid, though


The DMV example is pretty bad. Sure, I've had good experiences there and with healthcare through the Army but I'm willing to wager that my cases aren't universal. What does seem to be fairly universal, though, are people's experiences with Verizon customer service, healthcare customer service, and customer service with banks and credit cards. I know with each I have wanted to kill myself because of how awful they can all be, especially when all I'm trying to do is fix a mistake they made so I don't get charged more than the agreed to amount.

Seriously, no experience with a government service compares to the majority of my experiences with "customer service".

Frazzled wrote:Its an overgeneralization but
The problem with the Democratic Party is:
1) That many of their social policies are, well, extreemely liberal. The general bent of this group is not.
2) Their tax policies generally involve increased taxes.
3) Their economic policies aren't substantially different than the Republican Party.

The problem with the Republican Party is:
1) That many of their social policies are, well, extremely conservative The general bent of this group is not.
2) Their tax policies generally involve reduced taxes for wealthier groups.
3) Their economic policies aren't substantially different than the Republican Party.

Neither party addresses crony capitalism. Neither party addresses the growth of government. Neither party is particularly better than a drunken addict when it concerns the governmental treasury. Neither party really addresses structural changes needed to make the US competitive 50 years from now.

I will not argue with you there. Neither party can find it's backside without a GPS fix, waypoints, and a tactical map when it comes to economics. But lately the Republicans have made a fetish out of getting the social conservative vote by downplaying political and economic policy in favor of 'hate the gay!'

Vulcan wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Its an overgeneralization but
The problem with the Democratic Party is:
1) That many of their social policies are, well, extreemely liberal. The general bent of this group is not.
2) Their tax policies generally involve increased taxes.
3) Their economic policies aren't substantially different than the Republican Party.

The problem with the Republican Party is:
1) That many of their social policies are, well, extremely conservative The general bent of this group is not.
2) Their tax policies generally involve reduced taxes for wealthier groups.
3) Their economic policies aren't substantially different than the Republican Party.

Neither party addresses crony capitalism. Neither party addresses the growth of government. Neither party is particularly better than a drunken addict when it concerns the governmental treasury. Neither party really addresses structural changes needed to make the US competitive 50 years from now.

I will not argue with you there. Neither party can find it's backside without a GPS fix, waypoints, and a tactical map when it comes to economics. But lately the Republicans have made a fetish out of getting the social conservative vote by downplaying political and economic policy in favor of 'hate the gay!'

I'd disagree with that strongly. If anything they seem to have downplayed the economy- that KISS sure winner with the mantra of a balancing the budget. None of the spam I get is hate the gay! Its all lets stop Obama from completing his socialist quest to destroy America...

An epic Dad moment.
Phone rings. Some telecaller: "Is Frazzled Sr. there? "
Frazzled Sr.: "No! (now shouting) You called a pay phone outside Billy Bob's Bar and Grill"
Telecaller: "Sorry."
Frazzled Sr. "So what do you want to order? Today's special is Gator tail."
Telecaller:"Er, nothing, its a wrong number."
Frazzled Sr.: "You sure? Its awfully good."

ShumaGorath wrote:It likely helps that Australia is surrounded by trade partners with larger economies. Part of the American bubble includes the nascent belief that America is an island and doesn't need the rest of the world. We're giants living on high mountains. We're also seemingly much easier swayed by populist political rhetoric then the rest of the west for some very annoying reason.

Ah, true. That's a good point and likely explains a lot of the issue.

TheHammer wrote:Like I said, I think trade can be a good thing. I think it can be a carrot and can be used to promote liberalization throughout the world. This belief that free markets beget free people is totally flawed and we can see that in places like China. If we offer to increase trade with China in return for some developments on their part then that makes sense, but to just open the flood gates and don't even try to regulate it? That's insanity.

I agree entirely with that. I especially agree that entirely open trade should only be with other countries that are playing by the same rules. That is, trade with China should not be completely opened up until China floats the Yuan, and stops keeping it artificially low.

My point is not that all trade should always be open, at all times. Across the board liberalisation of trade has been a wonderful thing, but that doesn't every action taken to increase trade will always be good. My point is that for a country that is so far on the rightwing in most economic matters, it seems strange to come across a position where it seems a majority of people on both sides of politics take a protectionist, anti-free trade position.

Shuma's answer likely solves a lot of the issue, the rest of us have more or less accepted that we can't be a whole world unto ourselves, the US not so much.

Feel free to dry hump your copy of Lexus and the Olive Tree while calling other people stupid, though

That was pretty unnecessary.

sebster wrote:

Feel free to dry hump your copy of Lexus and the Olive Tree while calling other people stupid, though

That was pretty unnecessary.

Strangest book recommendation i think i've ever seen? Not sure if i should read it or try his suggested information input?
Reading seems more for me. i'm an old fashioned liberal.