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It is fine to disagree as the issue is not 100% clear, but I can not fathom how The INAT council, consisting of TOs and veteran players, looked at that situation about the Terminator Sergeants and ruled it that way. Terminators and Terminator Sergeants have the exact same effect on the game.

There is strong evidence that the profile of characteristics does not include the name as a component.

But no need to rehash that discussion.

I was more saying that the INAT answer on FNP saves is incorrect.
Even though they came to the correct conclusion, how they got there has nothing to do with the actual rules of the game..

As I explained before, there are multiple rules and special effects which distinguish sergeants from other members of their unit, even when their statlines and equipment are identical.

I think your position is a bit strong on the FNP ruling, but agree with your rationale on how and why it should work. I'll be happy to raise it in the next meeting.

Mannahnin wrote:As I explained before, there are multiple rules and special effects which distinguish sergeants from other members of their unit, even when their statlines and equipment are identical.

The only ones the Wound allocation rules care about are profile of characteristics, weapons, wargear, and special rules.

But I get what you are saying.


I take such a strong position about FNP, because that says to me that the INAT council has not fully thought about that ruling and why it should work the way they say it does.

It makes me rethink the document and devalues it, because that may not be the only incorrect answer.

DeathReaper wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:As I explained before, there are multiple rules and special effects which distinguish sergeants from other members of their unit, even when their statlines and equipment are identical.

The only ones the Wound allocation rules care about are profile of characteristics, weapons, wargear, and special rules.

And whether the "profile of characteristics" includes the name was the point of disagreement in the previous thread, as for the purposes of several special rules it can be the only relevant distinction between two different models in the same unit.

DeathReaper wrote:I take such a strong position about FNP, because that says to me that the INAT council has not fully thought about that ruling and why it should work the way they say it does.

It makes me rethink the document and devalues it, because that may not be the only incorrect answer.

I think I can just about guarantee there is no person on the INAT council who agrees with every single ruling in the document. In any given member's opinion, there are undoubtedly multiple "incorrect" answers. That doesn't mean they are unreasonable or unfair rulings. Some of the rulings are not unanimous, and could honestly and reasonably go one of multiple different ways. And the council voted and settled on one because it needed an answer.

Just extending the logic some are applying to this... so some of you think my Space Marine Sargs get to carry meltaguns if I want?

You need to look at the History of the term "Terminator" to se whats going on here.
In previous editions you had Elite Troops in Tactical Dreadnought Armor that were called 'terminators'...the armor being slang into 'Terminator armor.'
At the same time you had SGTs of Squads given the term "Terminator Honors."
This 'honor' gave the SGT of a squad the same statlines as a Terminator Elite (2 attacks and LD9 vice A1; Ld8 that the rest of the squad has). The SGT with Terminator Honors was typically models with the small shoulder pad with a Termi Crux on it (these pads are still produced and sold today...useful for denoting SternGuard and VanGuard troops from normal C:SM troops.

In the latest Codex and BRB the verbage "Terminator Honors" has pretty well passed and the Squad Leader is usually just called SGT, although he still carries over the same statline as an Elite. They are treated EXACTLY as any other member of their squad as far as wound allocation, SA, fall back, USRs, etc.
The restrictions and advantages described for "Terminators" are specifically for models in Tactical Dreadnought Armor.

I won't bore you with how old I am, or how many editions I own (hint: started before there were editions).

But we can't have it both ways. Current codices are to be read as self contained.

IF term sargs get CML or HF or anything else, then tactical sargs can carry meltas and plasma cannons and such.

The relevant rules just have to read the same twice. Can't have it for terms that a term sarg is also a term, without a marine sarg also being a marine... which we all know isn't so, which makes all of this just silly.

I'm also curious why anyone would want their sarg to carry the CML... I like diversity for wound allocation purposes.

Best solution=Play BT. No sergeants except in command squads

Equally best solution=Play Xenos. No sergeants at all.

Lobukia wrote:IF term sargs get CML or HF or anything else, then tactical sargs can carry meltas and plasma cannons and such.

That would indeed appear to be the case with the current codex.

The relevant rules just have to read the same twice. Can't have it for terms that a term sarg is also a term, without a marine sarg also being a marine... which we all know isn't so, ...

Do we?

A Space Marine Sergeant is most definitely a Space Marine. Otherwise, ATSKNF isn't going to do him a heck of a lot of good.

I rather suspect that everyone has just assumed that sergeants can't take the weapon upgrades because it's always been that way before... Previous codexes had specific rules that prohibited the sergeant from taking squad upgrade weapons. The current codex has no such prohibition, but everyone has just kept on playing it as if it does.