Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

All this talk of a 4+ cover save is little use when you'll be going against LR Redeemers. Even if you have a cover save, if you are planning to move flat out it's odds on you could get immobilized and therefore destroyed by boltguns.

BlapBlapBlap wrote:All this talk of a 4+ cover save is little use when you'll be going against LR Redeemers. Even if you have a cover save, if you are planning to move flat out it's odds on you could get immobilized and therefore destroyed by boltguns.

If you moved flatout and got hit by an LR redeemer, you deserve it. Also, Str 6 rarely do anything against AV12.

Yuber wrote:

BlapBlapBlap wrote:All this talk of a 4+ cover save is little use when you'll be going against LR Redeemers. Even if you have a cover save, if you are planning to move flat out it's odds on you could get immobilized and therefore destroyed by boltguns.

If you moved flatout and got hit by an LR redeemer, you deserve it. Also, Str 6 rarely do anything against AV12.

If he's moving flat out, an immobilized result will send him into the ground. If a BA player deepstrikes a Redeemer next to you and uses POTMS to use one Flamestorm Cannon it could easily send you crashing into the ground.

BlapBlapBlap wrote:

Yuber wrote:

BlapBlapBlap wrote:All this talk of a 4+ cover save is little use when you'll be going against LR Redeemers. Even if you have a cover save, if you are planning to move flat out it's odds on you could get immobilized and therefore destroyed by boltguns.

If you moved flatout and got hit by an LR redeemer, you deserve it. Also, Str 6 rarely do anything against AV12.

If he's moving flat out, an immobilized result will send him into the ground. If a BA player deepstrikes a Redeemer next to you and uses POTMS to use one Flamestorm Cannon it could easily send you crashing into the ground.

1.) Moving flatout doesnt kill it when it when it is immobilized. It only happens on your own turn.

2.) Nobody will deepstrike a Redeemer just to shoot an ineffective weapon at an ineffective target. Let alone a land raider.

3.) Nobody deepstrikes an LR that close.

4.) Stop making impractical/impossible scenarios to discredit a good point.

BlapBlapBlap wrote:

Yuber wrote:

BlapBlapBlap wrote:All this talk of a 4+ cover save is little use when you'll be going against LR Redeemers. Even if you have a cover save, if you are planning to move flat out it's odds on you could get immobilized and therefore destroyed by boltguns.

If you moved flatout and got hit by an LR redeemer, you deserve it. Also, Str 6 rarely do anything against AV12.

If he's moving flat out, an immobilized result will send him into the ground. If a BA player deepstrikes a Redeemer next to you and uses POTMS to use one Flamestorm Cannon it could easily send you crashing into the ground.

1.) Moving flatout doesnt kill it when it when it is immobilized. It only happens on your own turn.

Yes, it does. pg 71, Shooting at skimmers, 3rd paragraph.

2.) Nobody will deepstrike a Redeemer just to shoot an ineffective weapon at an ineffective target. Let alone a land raider.

I know I would gladly, if I had the chance.

3.) Nobody deepstrikes an LR that close.

I would.

4.) Stop making impractical/impossible scenarios to discredit a good point.

I'm trying to help. The fact that he seems to think a re rollable 4+ cover save is good to rely on needs readjusting. Nothing in Warhammer 40K is a certainty, and telling people not to expect it is a poor lesson.

I would love someone to DS a LR Redeemer so they can flame my tank. Beside the fact that there is almost never only one tank and so it's very likely the LR will mishap, there are probably Fire Dragons in that tank and they will promptly roast said LR. I don't see what part of this is a reliable tactic that Eldar should watch out for when making TAC lists. Even anecdotal evidence would be interesting to hear.

Additionally, the thing about a re-rollable 4+ on an Eldar skimmer is that even without any cover they aren't easy to take out. So even once it's been damaged you have a 75% of nothing at all happening.

Okay, saw some talk about Holo-Fields not being better than Energy fields on Wave Serpents. First of all? Ask yourself why Wave Serpents can't have them? Because they're too good for every dedicated transport to have!

Tanks get penetrated. Especially Armor 12. And a lucky vehicle damage roll could pop a tank at the most inconvenient times. We've all been there, but Holo-Fields mitigate this quite a bit.

How much? When you roll 2D6 there are a total of 64 combinations possible between the two dice, out of those 64 combinations only 3 of them cause a 'Wrecked' or 'Destroyed' result.

But what about when you TB? Well then immobilized results wreck you and your odds of survival drop, but not by much, because now there are only 6 out of 64 combinations of dice rolls that would destroy your tank. This comes to down to a 9% chance that a penetration roll will actually do something.

And the 9% that do something get to be further mitigated by a 4+ cover save, and if you're fortuned, a SECOND 4+ cover save.

Falcons are so survivable it's ridiculous.

@BlapBlapBlap
I really don't think that you should disband a strategy if there is a very improbable situation that a much pricier unit can mess it up. Missile spam or Hydra spam is bane of pretty much everything we have but that is no reason to stop playing.

@Oozi Hobo
It's actually 4 out of 64 and 9 out of 64 when moving flat out.

Seriously are people serious about using flamestorm cannons to down Falcons??

2D6 does not have 64 combinations, there are 6x6=36 possible combinations. With 4 of them destroying a Holo falcon.

While Holofields are great against anything with an AP value above 1 they become drastically worse against AP 1 weapons. Within melta range and assuming the shot is not onto rear armour a Serpent is more survivable than a holo falcon and much less likely to have to roll on the damage table.

The reason that serpents cant have Holofields is not that they are much better than force fields, its that the combination of Force field and Holofield is much too good

tedurur wrote:Seriously are people serious about using flamestorm cannons to down Falcons??

2D6 does not have 64 combinations, there are 6x6=36 possible combinations. With 4 of them destroying a Holo falcon.

While Holofields are great against anything with an AP value above 1 they become drastically worse against AP 1 weapons. Within melta range and assuming the shot is not onto rear armour a Serpent is more survivable than a holo falcon and much less likely to have to roll on the damage table.

The reason that serpents cant have Holofields is not that they are much better than force fields, its that the combination of Force field and Holofield is much too good

1) Yes, absolutely. Both force fields would make for the most survivable tank in the game, hands down.

2) I should have thought before I took that troll bait. Flaming a Falcon is an absurd idea.

BlapBlapBlap wrote:

BlapBlapBlap wrote:

Yuber wrote:

BlapBlapBlap wrote:All this talk of a 4+ cover save is little use when you'll be going against LR Redeemers. Even if you have a cover save, if you are planning to move flat out it's odds on you could get immobilized and therefore destroyed by boltguns.

If you moved flatout and got hit by an LR redeemer, you deserve it. Also, Str 6 rarely do anything against AV12.

If he's moving flat out, an immobilized result will send him into the ground. If a BA player deepstrikes a Redeemer next to you and uses POTMS to use one Flamestorm Cannon it could easily send you crashing into the ground.

1.) Moving flatout doesnt kill it when it when it is immobilized. It only happens on your own turn.

Yes, it does. pg 71, Shooting at skimmers, 3rd paragraph.

2.) Nobody will deepstrike a Redeemer just to shoot an ineffective weapon at an ineffective target. Let alone a land raider.

I know I would gladly, if I had the chance.

3.) Nobody deepstrikes an LR that close.

I would.

4.) Stop making impractical/impossible scenarios to discredit a good point.

I'm trying to help. The fact that he seems to think a re rollable 4+ cover save is good to rely on needs readjusting. Nothing in Warhammer 40K is a certainty, and telling people not to expect it is a poor lesson.

Heh. Enjoy rolling a 6 to glance, and another 6 to immobilize. Assuming you dont even scatter while deepstriking and assuming that it is even a good idea to risk a 400+ point unit to kill a 150+ point unit at 1/36 chance.

Then again, ive fed the troll too much already.

Yeah, not overly concerned about the DSing LR Redeemer silver bullet, gotta say.

Outside of that, I think that the Falcon is better vs the vast majority of things that are going to be shot at it, because by and large most anti-tank weapons are not AP 1.

Lets look at the weapons that are AP 1 that you'll likely be seeing on table tops. They are (feel encouraged to point out any that I miss):

1. Melta weapons.
2. Railguns.
3. Bloodstrike Missiles.

I think that people can agree that for the first category, the vast majority of the weapons we are concerned with are meltaguns rather than multi-meltas, meaning it's the 6" range where a Falcon loses it's edge over a Wave Serpent.

Absolute best case scenario, this attack has an 18-20" threat range, and that involves a transport moving 12" directly towards the Falcon, disembarking 2" towards the Falcon, and then popping that one shot off. For non-BA players this generally means turning the guns of the transport in question off for the speed, meaning that you'll likely see it done from Rhinos and not much else. Personally, if you hover your Falcons right at 18" from the enemy Rhinos, it's nothing but win for you if you manage to pull a scoring tactical squad and it's transport 14ish inches out of position to take one pot shot at your tank, as now you don't have to bother de-meching them, and can proceed with either gunning them down or dropping the cargo of some of the Falcons to consume the offering the Space Marine player has just graciously provided you with.

Outside of this set up, we're generally talking about a 12" threat range for Meltas, the range of meltas on foot and meltas in Imperial Transports... which is a threat range that Falcons need not concern themselves with, as they can threaten things from 14"-16" away thanks to their cargo being 100 percent Fleet units. Mobility is your friend here.

As for the DSing oddities with Meltaguns, like DOA Assault Squads, Obliterators and the like, the Wave Serpent is also at a disadvantage against them, as these units can always come down in the rear arc and negate the Wave Serpent's force field altogether, something the Falcon doesn't have to worry about.

Multi-meltas are another story, but they have far fewer platforms that they are employable from.

For the second group, Railguns, yeah, the Wave Serpent is very nice to have against them, I won't argue that. Debuffing from Str. 10 to Str. 8 vs AV 12 is a pretty big shot to the pants. However, as these are only present in Tau armies, Falcons have to endure far fewer turns of their fire. Why? Because it's a Tau army. You don't need to do nearly as much dancing, you really can default to the 'get across the table as fast as possible' assault transport configuration for them. If you manage to alpha out of your transports and take out 2 Broadside units, a Crisis Suit unit, and a Stealth Suit unit, it's pretty much over for the Tau player in any case.

For the 3rd group, they're 4 one-shot weapons on one vehicle in the game, either Machine Spirited at you one at a time, or alphaed all at once at the cost of the thing going more than 6" that turn. In either case, the Wave Serpent doesn't have a significant advantage over the Falcon, as the things are Str 8 and don't rely on multiple dice.

So, to sum up.

Meltaguns are the lion's share of the concern here, however with a bit of foresight and smart movement Falcons can negate most of the advantages they have vs what a Wave Serpent would accomplish.

Railguns ruin the day of anything with an AV. However, unless your local meta just bleeds the little blue dudes, I don't think that Wave Serpents are worth taking over Falcons.

Bloodstrike missiles are on the list simply because I wanted a 3rd thing to make it actually seem listish, and couldn't think of any other AP 1 ranged weapons likely to be encountered.

The Falcon has the advantage for the vast majority of the weapons that will be pointed at it that it can do nothing about with it's mobility: Lascannons, Missile Launchers, Auto-cannons, Assault Cannons, Psycannons, Deff Guns, Battle Cannons, Dark Lances, Missile Pods, Spike Cannons, etc. The long range, Str. 7+ weaponry that makes up just about 80-90 percent of the penetrating and glancing hits that my Falcons suffer.

In my local club, I fight against 3 tau players who use broadsides and hammerheads. I myself play tau and utilize Broadsides and crisis suits and the manditory tithe of 2 fire teams. So I do see the 10 s quite a bit. In adition a lot of our space marine players here tend to run Melta Heavy. I see your point. I think both the energy field and the Holo-fields are good. I just think the EF is a little better. Don't get me wrong the Holo-fields having an effect in the rear and in CC is awesome, something the WS does not get. Like I said I think it is a close call.
Cheers.

Wow, I did my exponents wrong. I should leave math hammer to the pros, haha.

I know meltas and other AP1 weapons are horrible, but careful movement can usually avoid these (deep striking and drop podding aside).

But you know what Wave Serpents just cannot survive? Long Fangs, Ork Lootas, and Psyfleman. I'll trade not worrying about those to worrying about a few meltas any day. =]

Vindicators are AP1 too, but they're not going to be in range of Falcons until it's too late, really. And they're not that tough so you can probably shoot them down at range.

Demolisher Cannons are AP2, not AP1.

Avatar 720 wrote:Demolisher Cannons are AP2, not AP1.

Hm. Need to remind my friend of that

Thanks man

If your Local club is half Tau, then yes, Wave Serpents will give you more bang for your buck, easily.

My meta has about 3-4 Tau guys out over over 20 players, a couple of whom aren't big fans of Railguns. The rest are Vannila SM, Guard, Space Wolf, Ork, Blood Angel, and Chaos players who rip Wave Serpents out of the air with massed str 7-8 fire.