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I've only had two run ins with flayed ones.
1) 15 vs 5 Sang Guard.
Guard shoot on the way in and kill two. Guard charge and kill 6, flayed ones kill 2 in response. Sang Guard win by 4, flayed ones break and flee and get caught.
2) 15 vs BA assault marines.
BA deep strike in and shoot(2x plasmaguns+ inferno/PW vet), and kill a few. Flayed ones charge in and combat drags on for 3 turns (marines lose twice, flayedones lose once). In the end, the flayed ones are cut down after a single bad round of combat.

IMO, the problems with flayed ones are:
1) Slow once on the table. Yes, they can infiltrate, outflank and deep strike. But then what?
2) Good against some, bad against others, but they have no way to compete/survive vs those they are bad against.

If you can get the right match up, they are decent to good. But if you can't get the right match up, they are horrible. One killa kan owns them.

IMO they needed either the option for royal court to be attached. A necron lord for some hitting power, or a crytek for defensive grenades would be great.
Barring that, Krak grenades would be extremely helpful.

'ard boyz are a great comparison, as the stat-line is similar, yet 'ard boyz have options for quick transports, and a nob who can smash vehicles. Add in a turn or two of fearless, and you've got a winning combo.


What I have seen them do is force opponents to react. I saw a unit of 6 outflank and force a whirlwind to move rather than take fist fulls of S4 auto hits to rear armor. That disruption was worth the 78 points.
260 points for a melee only unit that can be swept in a single round? I'll pass.


-Matt

20 Flayed Ones deployed using Deepstrike by way of Imotek's Bloodswarm Nanoscarabs would be reasonably effective. It'd be even more effective if you could combine it with the Nemesor and deep strike them in on your opponents turn. Then you'd have a scary distraction blob that most armies would have to do something to while the rest of your army hoses them.

If in 6th you can assault after you deepstrike, they get quite a bit better too.

However, as they stand now, the math isn't in their favour. The big problems are their mediocre armour of "Fails half the time" and their I2 of "I go last".

260 Points for 20 flayed ones.

250 Points for 6 Wraiths (2 whip coils, 2 particle casters, 2 nekkid).

For 10 points less, you can have a unit with only 8 less wounds (with some wound allocation shenanigans) that has a 3++ invulnerable save, goes first against most things (due to two whip coils, which is all you generally need against most things), *ignores* terrain, Rends, has S6, is Fearless (won't get swept), and ... shoots! (*laughs*)

What happens if your flayed ones get assaulted by a Walker? A lone... single killa kan. How embarassing for those flayed ones to never be able to hurt it and slowly die to a 50 (or less) point can.

Wraiths get assaulted by a Kan? The kill it, and likely don't take any damage.

Wraiths just offer so much more tactical flexibility that if you had 260 points to spend on a close-combat threat, the clear choice would not be the flayed ones (That's why we bring them up all the time).

I'll concede that a unit of 20 deployed via Imotek's Bloodswarm Nanoscarabs would be awesome though.

the killa kan scenario is a touch off base... they won't slowly die. The kan will obliterate a bunch of flayed ones, they will do nothing in response, and then immediately fall the hell back / get swept.

Flayed ones are not fearless... which is yet another problem with them compared to wraiths.

But even Imotekh's Bloodswarm Nanoscarabs only allow you to select a random unit, and thus removing any value to the idea that Flayed Ones can even be a good distraction. I'm personally not a fan of leaving things to such a variable.

Indeed.

You know what else is fearless? Five Praetorians with Voidblades and Particle Casters, rocking in at 60 points less.

On occasion, I run the 175pt Destroyer Lord (Orb + Mindshackle Scarabs) with the Praetorians. Last time I did, they beat up on a big unit of Grey Knight terminators.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

azazel the cat wrote:But even Imotekh's Bloodswarm Nanoscarabs only allow you to select a random unit, and thus removing any value to the idea that Flayed Ones can even be a good distraction. I'm personally not a fan of leaving things to such a variable.

The appeal isn't what they're near, they'll be near something. The appeal is the lack of scatter.

loreweaver wrote:Indeed.

You know what else is fearless? Five Praetorians with Voidblades and Particle Casters, rocking in at 60 points less.

On occasion, I run the 175pt Destroyer Lord (Orb + Mindshackle Scarabs) with the Praetorians. Last time I did, they beat up on a big unit of Grey Knight terminators.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

azazel the cat wrote:But even Imotekh's Bloodswarm Nanoscarabs only allow you to select a random unit, and thus removing any value to the idea that Flayed Ones can even be a good distraction. I'm personally not a fan of leaving things to such a variable.

The appeal isn't what they're near, they'll be near something. The appeal is the lack of scatter.

Really? So you find it appealing that you're essentially trading away the ability to deploy the unit tactically in exchange for being able to deploy them exactly where you want them to go, but where you want them to go is not up to you? That's basically a Hobson's choice, and an expensive one at that. I still just can't see their value, and would rather take Warriors.

I only see one real use for Flayed Ones and that is outfllanking with the hopes of hitting heavy weapon teams. If a unit of 10-12 Flayed Ones charges an average unit of BA Assault Marines (assuming they are in the bubble) or Grey Hunters they will lose. They can however take on IG heavy weapon teams, Long Fangs, Tau Broadsides and the like. There are problems with this:

1. Necrons have no reserve or outflank manipulation. Which means that they are both unreliable and easily countered. If an opponent deploys centrally, the strategy is void. If the opponent deploys to one side, there is a 33% chance the Flayed Ones enter into Siberia and do nothing. I assume good players will do one of these. Would you pay 130 points to have a 33% chance that a unit does nothing? Especially factoring in that 66% of the time they aren't exactly world beaters.

2. The opponent might not have static shooting elements which means they are essentially worthless. As mentioned, if they charge a Psyfleman or Killa Kans, they will do nothing. All mechanized don't particularly fear them either.

If Flayed Ones were 2 points more and had rending, fleet, or could flank similarly to Wolf Scouts or Kommandos, sure I'd say they'd have hope. If they could take an upgrade character like a Res Orb Lord, maybe, maybe they would have hope. As it stands I don't see them having many uses in a competitive environment. Chips and beer games, go nuts.

Flayed Ones are really good in the turn after the charge. The problem is arranging that, which is in turn very difficult.

It's a shame Necrons have no access to defensive grenades. FO with them would be much better. Defensive grenades + Zandrek to remove Furious Charge would make a big block of FO a really unpleasant prospect.

As it is, FO are a counterassault unit competing with a variety of other options that all generally have additional benefits. As JGrand said, if they had fleet, rending, or (IMO) were Troops they would have a point.

^^ If the flayed ones kept the wording "Terrifying visage" and it simply gave them defensive grenades, it would be awesome. Simply worded "The opponents of the flayed ones charge in, until they realize the flayed ones are wearing the flesh of their fallen brethren and hesitate on the assault" or something as simple as that.

AH well, whats done is done

Flayed Ones have two major disadvantages - I2 and 4+ armor save. They are usually striking last and fail 1/2 their armor saves. They do have lots of attacks but this advantage is mostly negated by their two inherent weaknesses. Versus another dedicated assault unit they will often break and be swept due to I2. As such even with Outflank I don't think they are viable as a dedicated assault unit, which is obviously their intended role. They might look on paper because of the large number of attacks but in practice most often this will not be able to work in their favor due to losing lots of models before they can swing back.