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I aill again paraphrase my response from another forum.

Compel wrote:Well, since people are talking about McNeill, I'm guessing it's about Ventris' opinions on the codex in Ultramarines?

It seems to me, that, following the story of Age of Darkness.

Gulliman originally wrote the Codex quite prescriptively (If X happens, do Y) as an experiment. He ordered some wargames to try it out, which failed at the end. So, he decided to rewrite it to be more generalised and sort of more advice based.

And generally speaking, that pretty much worked fine.
But, add 10000 years, and I can imagine, adding new additions to it, a revision or two Bible style and well, maybe it's become a little more like the former than the latter.

However, what if we then get different kinds of Ultramarines? The 'good' ones, who know it's supposed to be a tool for advice and the 'bad,' unimaginative ones to do treat it like a holy scripture. - This point is actually made in the Space Marine game.

Except the Ultramarines following the Codex strictly is not something new or even recent. The Ultramarines have always followed the Codex strictly. That is what empowers them to be one of the most sucessful chapters in the Imperium.

McNeill does not have a good interpretation of how the Codex Astartes works. The problem is not how he writes about the Ultramarines' adherence of its tenets.The Ultramarines' strict Codex adherence has always been their main defining characteristic. But in the recent years, Graham McNeill has started to turn that strict adherence into a bad thing. To him it means they cannot deal with new threats. It means they are predictable to someone with knowledge of the Codex. But my question is, why must it mean that? And how did the Ultramarines manage to be one of the most successful Chapters for 10,000 years if strictly following the Codex is that disadvantageous?

Curiously enough, the description of the Codex Astartes in the "Deathwatch" rulebook is much more to my liking:

This is not to say that the Ultramarines are hidebound or unimaginative in their thinking, for it must not be forgotten that Primarch Roboute Guilliman is regarded as one of the most imaginative and innovative military thinkers of all time. It is rather a deep-seated belief that every problem can be solved with recourse to the Codex Astartes, that there is no need to reinvent solutions to dilemmas solved long ago. By their strict adherence to the Codex, the Ultramarines are in fact freed by it. The success of this doctrine is self-evident in the countless thousands of battle honours the Chapter has earned over ten millennia of loyal service to the Imperium."

But that is not McNeill's view. In several of his stories, the protagonists find themselves confrionted with situations where strict Codex adherence would lead to their defeat, and they have to overcome their instinct to follow the Codex and go beyond, or even outright against, its teachings in order to succeed. That has been the entire core point of some of his stories, such as "Chains of Command", "Black Bone Road" and "Rules of Engagement". In the last one, he even has Guilliman himself state that it would be wrong to strictly adhere to the Codex guidelines. But as I have demonstrated above, that has always been the main characteristic of the Ultramarines. In my opinion that is a massive disservice to the Chapter's image.

In conclusion? I have no issue with the notion that the Codex cannot account for all possible situations. It is the notion that the Codex will sometimes give explicit advice that will lead to unfavourable results, and the commander has to go against the Codex to succeed I am taking issue with.

crimsonfist832 wrote:I follow the views of Dorn, Russ and Vulkan. It is useless, if somebody has the ability to maintain his 10,000 strong legion, especially the loyalist primarchs who had PROVEN themselves time and time again in the Heresy, let sleeping dogs lie.

Apparently people are not reading my posts. Vulkan is a Guilliman supporter as of Imperial Armour now.

Halmyr wrote:
I'l take an example: When Magnus is Assaulting Honsou warship in "the Chapters due", Magnus orders for the warship to spread because they are entering a debris/mine field.
Not a bad decision, give ships more room to move around and avoid debris, plus if some one gets hit, it leaves a nice space for the other. The problem came because

You have no idea just how big space is do you?

Plus Calgar evidently did not bother to send a frigate to investigate the place for a trap.

Halmyr wrote:
Honsou knew how he would react and used it against them to great effect.

Then Honsou would have to know in what state the ships where in, what types of ships Calgar had at his command and what Calgar’s strategic objectives where and what Calgar knew of the enemy. All of which would logically affect a decision taken.

Let me illustrate with something from Blood Reaver.

To say they arrived in orderly formation would be to do them an injustice, for the warriors' cohesion far exceeded anything seen in the Blood Reaver's attack force. In pristine ceramite of blue and white, matching the halved heraldries of ancient Terran knights, a single squad of warriors threw themselves into cover at the far end of the corridor. Their movements were utterly economical, ruthless in their soldiery precision, taking positions in total silence but for the growl of armour and the crack of bolter stocks against shoulder guards as each of them took aim.
Their leader was unhelmed, his stern features moulded into a mask of absolute resolve. Even over the distance, Talos knew that look, and could recall when he'd worn it himself. The defiance in the warrior's gaze made the prophet's skin crawl. Here was a man that believed in his cause. He felt no doubt, no hesitation, no temptation to wrack his mind in the fuile second-guessing of sworn duty. His life was unclouded by broken oaths, and the legacy of mistrust and confusion that drifted in the wake of every betrayal."

From "Blood Reaver" by Aaron Dembski-Bowden)

That scene features a Night Lord's observation of an arriving squad of enemy Marines Errant Marines. What stands out for the purpose of this thread are the observation that the Marines Errant's unit cohesion not only exceeded that of the Night Lords, but also that of the other units in Huron Blackheart's force. Then there is also that bit at the end, where Talos muses on the different mind set of traitors versus those of loyalists. The point I am trying to make with this is that even if a traitor force got ahold of the Codex Astartes, or even if it was an only recently turned Chapter, it is questionable whether the traitors would be able to apply all of the teachings of the Codex just like a loyalist Codex Chapter would. They might be able to use the broader tactical advice, but perhaps not the detailed battle doctrines. Traitors are of a different mindset, and Chaos warriors are often more individual minded, thinking of their own agenda, how to gain more power for themselves, probably mistrusting several of their comrades.

The problem with how some view the Codex Astartes is that they interpret it as being a specifically detailed set of instructions for a given situation. That is pretty much how McNeill seems to view it, and it is how he has described the Codex in "Rules of Engagement". The Codex dictated step by step how to fight a global campaign, and the Marine Commander using the Codex did not even understand what the ultimate goal of the individual steps would be. IMO that is a ridiculous notion, as it would be impossible to calculate and predict all the myriad constellations and factors of every battle ever to be fought. I mean, we are dealing with a fictional fantasy setting, but I just cannot keep up my suspension of disbelief with such a "predicts every step, in minute detail" manual.

I assume the Codex has much more general descriptions, and is intended to allow a force to work as economical and efficient as possible under varying circumstances. Situations have an optimal approach, and the Codex will have suggestions based on hundreds of years of warfare and empirical tests. But it cannot predict all minute details.

E.g. when fighting Orks, the Codex probably does not flat out dictate that every other squad must be equipped with a heavy bolter. Because then when facing a mechanized waaagh or a small force of 'ard boys and mega nobs the Marines would not be all that effective. The Codex will likely suggest that including heavy bolters is usually effective against orks, but the Codex will also suggest that missile launchers or laser cannons are useful against heavy armored opponents. When the Marine Commander is faced with an opposing waaagh, he has to decide the best course of action based on his intel of the situation and the suggestions of the Codex. If he only knows that he will be fighting Orks, he might opt to equip several of his squads with heavy bolters. But when the waaagh includes a lot of armour, he has to consider whether to equip more anti tank weapons.

The Codex will probably include figures on how many anti infantry and anti tank weapons are advisable depending on the amount of enemy infantry and enemy armour, but it will probably not flat out state that 3 squads must be given heavy bolters, 2 squads missile launchers and 1 squad a laser cannon.

Essentially, the way McNeill and some players see the Codex is that it gives specific instructions for how to equip and how to maneuver in minute detail, and the Marines will have to follow those specific instructions.

The way I see it the Codex makes a lot of suggestions on how to effectively and economically deal with more general situations, and it is then up to the Commander to assess the current situation and decide which suggestions of the Codex would be most applicable for the problems at hand.

As far as exploiting the Codex goes, the first point of view would of course allow for exploitation, as the enemy might now the exact weapon lay out and movement of the Codex force. The latter point of view would not allow for easy exploitation, since the Codex would tell the Commander how to conduct certain maneuvers, but it would not specifically tell him when and where to use them. It would be up to the Commander, to a certain degree, to figure out which tenets of the Codex would be most applicable and beneficial.

Thus an enemy possessing a copy of the Codex would lend them a somewhat greater advantage without, but it hardly would guarantee them victory or any significant advantage over a strict Codex Chapter.

At the time (just after the Heresy), they needed it. Now, however, it limits them too much.

They needed it. The Renegade Chapters later proved this. Imagine if Huron Blachheart had 40,000 Astartes as opposed to just the 4-6k he actually had. However, it can be restrictive and limits imaginative thinking. In every good there is some bad and in every bad there is some good. I'm like a philosopher and feth.

TechMarine1 wrote:At the time (just after the Heresy), they needed it. Now, however, it limits them too much.

And why must it be limited? Why would the Codex be written like that? Why would it be bad advice? Why are the Ultramarines unable to go outside of it?

the dark angels pretend to follow it so people leave us to do what we need to do but in reality we could reform as a single lgeion as quickly as the ships could arrive.

So in short we are with Russ, Vulkan and Dorn. The Ultramarines can keep it. Besides the deathwing kicks ass

captain collius wrote:the dark angels pretend to follow it so people leave us to do what we need to do but in reality we could reform as a single lgeion as quickly as the ships could arrive.

So in short we are with Russ, Vulkan and Dorn. The Ultramarines can keep it. Besides the deathwing kicks ass

Once again, Vulkan has been retconned to be a Guilliman supporter. And you do realize that the Imperial Fists are second to only the Ultramarines in Codex adherence? And that there is nothing especially non-Codex about the Deathwing? It’s simply a full company in Terminator armor. Most chapters simply don’t have enough Temrie suits to replicate that. There is nothing really non-Codex about the Deathwing.

As chapters go the Dark Angels are really 95% Codex in tactical and organizational anyway, with the only real divergences being the Ravenwing and the Inner Circle. A Dark Angels Battle Company would likely operate very similar to an Ultramarines Battle Company.

Halmyr wrote:
But I'm sure, and hope, the Codex a warning printed in small text "these are example, please feel free to use your own jugment depending on battlefield situation"

I wonder if on the first page it reads "To my darling Candy. All characters portrayed within this book are fictitous and any resemblance to persons living or dead is purely coincidental."

wulfmojo wrote:

Halmyr wrote:
But I'm sure, and hope, the Codex a warning printed in small text "these are example, please feel free to use your own jugment depending on battlefield situation"

I wonder if on the first page it reads "To my darling Candy. All characters portrayed within this book are fictitous and any resemblance to persons living or dead is purely coincidental."

And on the back theres the words "Don't Panic" in bright friendly color

Legions got s*** done. By breaking them down, they reduced their effectiveness. The Codex would be good if those that wanted to follow it did and those that wished to remain as legions could still use the ideas from it (like the formation ratios used in companies).

I think the codex was a devious plot by Roberto.

His legion was the biggest.
He dodged the worst of the fighting ensuring that his was the strongest when everything was done.
As a result he was able to throw his weight around.
He became a high lord, none of the other primarchs did.
He broke up the legions knowing that the ultramarine successor chapters would still obey him if he called.
He ensured that the majority of future chapters would be made from his geneseed and answer to him.

Major power-building coup.

If not for his little accident he'd be in a perfect position for leading an armed insurrection.

At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter, in my eyes. Let each Chapter do what they feel is best.

*Nevermind, I acccidently clicked the submit button.*

This is what happens when you follow the Codex to the letter.

Didn't the recent space marine game show following the codex to the tee is a bad thing?

Scott-S6 wrote:I think the codex was a devious plot by Roberto.

His legion was the biggest.
He dodged the worst of the fighting ensuring that his was the strongest when everything was done.
As a result he was able to throw his weight around.
He became a high lord, none of the other primarchs did.
He broke up the legions knowing that the ultramarine successor chapters would still obey him if he called.
He ensured that the majority of future chapters would be made from his geneseed and answer to him.

Major power-building coup.

If not for his little accident he'd be in a perfect position for leading an armed insurrection.

That makes a scary amount of sense. If Fulgrim hadn't invaded Ultramar he'd have probably declared himself the new Emp eventually and pulled the plug on the old one.

I guess it makes sense, if it didn't fall apart at the second point. In the original fluff, the Ultramarines had been so successful that they were far away from Terra when Horus struck. In the first update to that fluff, they were out there because Horus had sent them as far away from Terra as possible so they couldn't interfere. The newest version of the Heresy, Horus sends them to muster at Calth and then sends those pansies the Word Bearers to ambush them. The Ultramarines stomped them, and proceeded to return to Earth.

In no version of that fluff did the Ultramarines purposefully dodge the Heresy out of some grand master plan. In fact, following the Heresy, they engaged in more fighting than any other legion. They just did it better than everyone else, and were able to both win battles, and grow in size.

Whether or not the Space Marines break into chapters or not, the Ultramarines are the largest by far. In fact, it makes more sense to consider that splitting into Chapters actually decreased the eventual influence of the Ultramarines. Only 3/5ths of Space Marine Chapters are descended from the Ultramarines, which means approximately 2 out of every 5 new chapters use the gene seed of the other chapters, maintaining that balance. At the rate the Ultramarines were growing before the Codex Astartes broke the legions up, they'd have eclipsed even their largest pre-Heresy numbers.

Besides, we had this discussion on B&C recently. Guilliman had stepped down from being a High Lord long before he was wounded by Fulgrim. When Guilliman was at his strongest, most powerful, most influential, and and most enabled, he gave up power. Not really the pattern behavior of a would-be tyrant. The Imperium had only ever known the autocratic rule of the Emperor. In his absence, there was no better replacement than one of his genetically engineered super being sons, and by that time, the Ultramarines were the most famous of the loyalist Legions. Guilliman could have been the Emperor if he wanted to, but he didn't. Guilliman was the dutiful good son. That's why he wasn't the Warmaster. He didn't have the aspirations and arrogance, or charisma of Horus. He was the best of the Emperor's generals because all he wanted to be was a Space Marine and win battles for the glory of mankind.

Harriticus wrote:They didn't have to de-fang the Chapters as much as they did. I think making a Codex chapter 5,000 or 10,000 would have sufficed fine since pre-Heresy legions were often in the 100,000 range (such as Word Bearers). It really makes no sense that a few hundred space marines could do the kind of missions required of them across entire planets. Yes, I know they're shock airborne troops and rely on the Guard for protracted missions. Yes, I know they're uber elite. But given the limitations they've shown with their missions often taking place across an entire planet or even star system, it is still far too vast for a few squads of a 100 astartes.

GW has problems with scale. They made this vast galaxy and yet the High Lords of Terra approve Officio Assassinorum assassination, major SoB orders are several thousand strong, a typical IG regiment is often under 5,000 men, etc,

You are forgetting that most of the loyalist legions were cut down to very low numbers.

GW doesn't have problems with scale. Assassinations are rare when not under the orders of the Inquisition, which has no Need for Lords of Terra approval. Guard regiments are normally under 5000 for the convenience of the commisars. Several reqiments are normally deployed for major threats. The Sisterhood does the least fighting of all of the Armies, As they are the Hereticus' version of the Deathwatch.

gabrielhorus wrote:

Harriticus wrote:They didn't have to de-fang the Chapters as much as they did. I think making a Codex chapter 5,000 or 10,000 would have sufficed fine since pre-Heresy legions were often in the 100,000 range (such as Word Bearers). It really makes no sense that a few hundred space marines could do the kind of missions required of them across entire planets. Yes, I know they're shock airborne troops and rely on the Guard for protracted missions. Yes, I know they're uber elite. But given the limitations they've shown with their missions often taking place across an entire planet or even star system, it is still far too vast for a few squads of a 100 astartes.

GW has problems with scale. They made this vast galaxy and yet the High Lords of Terra approve Officio Assassinorum assassination, major SoB orders are several thousand strong, a typical IG regiment is often under 5,000 men, etc,

You are forgetting that most of the loyalist legions were cut down to very low numbers.

GW doesn't have problems with scale. Assassinations are rare when not under the orders of the Inquisition, which has no Need for Lords of Terra approval. Guard regiments are normally under 5000 for the convenience of the commisars. Several reqiments are normally deployed for major threats. The Sisterhood does the least fighting of all of the Armies, As they are the Hereticus' version of the Deathwatch.

Naw, GW has horrible issues with scale. Tyranids consume entire planets worth of material, travel in realspace is goofy as all get out considering the insane distances involved, the production numbers for war material makes zero sense, it just goes on. Once you start talking about solar systems and galactic empires, numbers get large to the point that people can't really grasp them in their head because there's nothing in their experience that lets them judge it. Rule of cool wins out, but if you actually do stop and think about things, the setting looks pretty freaking goofy.