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< Taken by the void dragon. >

And this is why I don't do tournaments. I don't have the money to buy the bits, and if I try to model them, I won't have a clue as to what's what. Of course technically RAW, only characters need to be WYSIWYG.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1400031

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1400024

Can I make it any clearer for the Imperial players out there?

Unfortunately that doesn't help (for example) tyranid players, as there are no 2 bonesword options for warriors or wings for hive tyrants/warriors.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

Then decide what special weapons you want and GO!

Unless you're indecisive... sounds like a personal problem.

I've used plasma on my IG and Marines since third edition and it hasn't failed me yet.

Or use magnets. This is not an insurmountable problem. Yes, building WYSIWYG costs more than not - but it's more polite to your opponent if you're wysiwyg.

Happyjew wrote: I won't have a clue as to what's what.

So you can't understand what is what unless it is a proxy? When things are exactly what they look like you are confused?

rigeld2 wrote:

GBDarkAngel wrote:GW would love us all to go buy every combo for every model and even TO's need a reality check nowdays as most are becoming elitist fools.
Do you really want to be part of something that excludes people due to money or not being able to build / paint models properly? If you dont then i would seriously urge you all to take a look at the upcoming tournaments and demand that WYSIWYG and Painting are not part of overall scoring.

WYSIWYG has absolutely nothing to do with money. It has everything to do with being polite to your opponent. At the beginning of the game, I'm going to ask you to remember 3 numbers. After the game, I will ask you what those three numbers are, and if you get one of them wrong, you lose the game - regardless of how the actual play turned out. Having to remember what counts as what puts a burned on your opponent for absolutely no reason.

You are welcome to tell me 1 million numbers in a completely random order and i will remember them all. Do you want to know how?
Pen and Paper. (Counting as Every weapon and unit in Warhammer since the day it was invented)

Additionally I have no idea what every single weapon for every single army looks like. You could show me 3 different pistols. Halfway through the game, expect me to ask what kind of pistol a certain guy has.

GBDarkAngel wrote:A lot of fanboys seem to forget that the game is actually 99% imagination 1% toy soldiers on a table.

It's not just the 'fanboys' who think that the toy soldiers are a little more important to the game than that.

If WYSIWYG was really just a GW ploy to get us to spend more money, they would make more of an effort to release the parts needed to make every army WYSIWYG, and they would have made it an actual blanket rule in the rulebook, rather than hiding it away in the character section.

The simple fact is that GW have never really pushed it that hard. WYSIWYG is a gaming convention intended to make the game easier to follow, nothing more.

insaniak wrote:

GBDarkAngel wrote:A lot of fanboys seem to forget that the game is actually 99% imagination 1% toy soldiers on a table.

It's not just the 'fanboys' who think that the toy soldiers are a little more important to the game than that.

If WYSIWYG was really just a GW ploy to get us to spend more money, they would make more of an effort to release the parts needed to make every army WYSIWYG, and they would have made it an actual blanket rule in the rulebook, rather than hiding it away in the character section.

The simple fact is that GW have never really pushed it that hard. WYSIWYG is a gaming convention intended to make the game easier to follow, nothing more.

Hmmm...Massive push by GW circa 1998 if memory serves me well.

(Just to clarify, GW's intention was never for it to be taken literally and to the letter. They simply wanted every model played in the stores to be built and complete with Head, Body, Arms, Legs and Weapons. That was all; but somewhere over the years the power players have used it for an argument to prevent defeat due to "but he couldnt kill me with a multi melta because thats a pistol") The downside being that as soon as you use that as an argument then you need to make sure all your models are WYSIWYG because they will be queued round the corner waiting to throw it back at you.

However the point i made was "Do we really need it 100% shown on the models"?
For the record i never put an army on the table unless its at least 80% painted. Ive had my GK's for months now and wednesday was my first game with them.
I just dont feel the need for my opponent to have a, b , c, and d on his models as long as he tells me that a, b, c, and d are on the models.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

GBDarkAngel wrote:...but somewhere over the years the power players have used it for an argument to prevent defeat due to "but he couldnt kill me with a multi melta because thats a pistol")

Sorry, but unless you have a particularly weird bunch of players in your area, this is fantasy. That, or you're not pointing out whatever isn't WYSIWYG before the game.

WYSIWYG is nothing to do with powergaming, and never has been. Once again, it's an aid for easier gaming, nothing more. For the vast majority of players, it's not about refusing to let you shoot with the melta, it's simply about making it clear that the model has a melta.

However the point i made was "Do we really need it 100% shown on the models"?

And the point being made in return is that no, you probably don't. But the game is easier to play if it is.

GBDarkAngel wrote:
(Just to clarify, GW's intention was never for it to be taken literally and to the letter. They simply wanted every model played in the stores to be built and complete with Head, Body, Arms, Legs and Weapons. That was all;

I declare shenanigans on this statement as being totally made up and revisionist history pushing a personal agenda. That in no way was the old GW standard. The old GW standard was "you get an in-game advantage for paying more money" since most models were metal and released with limited weapon options. Most models were released with a single weapon option. You wanted a flamer, you bought an entire model with a flamer. GW stores were 100% WYSIWYG not just so they had arms... they wouldn't even allow them on the table without being 100% WYSIWYG and painted. This 'assembled only' has only been the standard since around 2005 when the hobby died and all the hobby events went belly up with the death of GTs.

Saying GW was the source of tolerance for Proxies is totally untrue.

"GW defines COUNTS AS: The 'Counts As' rule allows you to apply the rules for existing units to older or scratch built models that do not have rules of their own. This is to allow you to make full use of your collection or the army choices within our rule books; it's not an excuse to change your army as a way of fine tuning your force."

I just dont feel the need for my opponent to have a, b , c, and d on his models as long as he tells me that a, b, c, and d are on the models.

It is a burden on an opponent. Just because you accept a burden doesn't give you the right to force the burden on others.

As long as you and your opponent agree on a way of playing, there is no issue, but don't believe you have a 'RIGHT' to demand non-WYSIWYG in all situations because it is expensive or GW didn't give you enough fiddly bitz. If the event, or house rule, or store or opponent requires it, then meet the standard or the game doesn't occur.

And owners who pay rent on the gaming space you play in or run the events you are participating in totally have the right to impose WYSIWYG on you. If that means you stay at home and play in your basement, then cool. I find my best gaming experiences are at well run events with hundreds of other gamers... Following WYSIWYG to be able to participate and make the game easier to play is a small price to pay. It makes the game easier to play and that makes the game more enjoyable for everyone.

WYSIWYG is important because it can get out of control fast. In a hobby where 10 guys costs you $40 having to spend $8 to kit 2 squads out with plasma guns is not an unreasonable requirement, especially when it only matters when there is a prize or award involved. If you cant be bothered to either purchase the bits available to actually finish building a squad you intend to compete with or even spend an afternoon coming up with a suitable conversion then you have no right competing in a formal tourney (unless that tourney was set up to be a casual affair.) It takes just a few hours of creativity to come up with your version of a melta gun or a blaster using the available bits.

Will it look like the one in the book? No. Will it work to make the people you play with content and probably impressed that you went to the effort? A resounding yes. Grab a bolter, cut a melta bomb in half, glue it to the side, extend the barrel with a tube or straw or even a drilled out frag grenade, boom you just invented a new pattern of melta gun unique to your army in about 20 min. (i just made that up so it may suck)

Some people say its about the money. That's only the case if you insist on using the preconceived models and ways of doing things. Most of this hobby is about creativity. Its only expensive for the die hards like me who have to make everything to fluff or the FotM power gamers who have to buy a WYSIWYG army every 6 months.

Why do the fluff nerds and the WYSIWYG Nazis get so up in arms about it all at tourneys? Because to us if your just going to "counts as" all your special weapons, you might as well just make all bolter marines and put a red dot on all the bases that have meltas. Hell why even put bolters on these guys, we know marines use bolters, sell um on ebay and just use the legs and torsos. Screw that just glue a paper clip to a round base to simulate model height and call it a day.

A lot of people treat the cost of an army as the entry fee into a tourney and forget to be creative along the way. If you want to have 2 armys duke it out but don't want to be creative, that's what video games are for, they do it for you. This game is about creating something first, then kicking peoples asses with it.

One last point then ill get off my soap box and retreat back to my dark cave.

To the original posters point, I feel that GW has realy dropped the ball when it comes to making weapon options available for the armys they support. When the only option the company gives you to properly kit out a 10 man squad is to purchase 4 boxes of said squad, that's ridiculous. And the bits stores are getting out of control. A single blaster is $10 on bwbits. I agree with whomever said it, they need to start coming out with weapon kits. If gw made a sprue that had 4 of each DE weapon type on it they could sell just that for 35 bucks or more and I'd be lining up to get it. For now the only option for those unavalible bits is to spend the money or to get creative.

As for the list you mentioned, Trueborn in venoms using splinter rifles as blasters. If in fact those were the only example of splinter rifles in the army I'd consider it (though i am more forgiving than many) But there is one issue with your list. There are splinter rifles underslung on every venom. So unless they can take TL blasters on a venom you'll have to come up with something else.