Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

theironjef wrote:Well you're skipping a relevant question. If they are allowed in ruins, why aren't they on that list of units that are allowed in ruins?

Because they aren't allowed to move through ruins, which is what that sentence says (Accordingly, only Infantry, jetbikes, monstrous creatures, and walkers may move on the upper levels of a ruin - and only if the model can physically be placed there.)

Skimmers don't move through anything - it moves over (page 71, moving skimmers).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akroma06 wrote:It doesn't really matter why. I'm sorry but it doesn't. Skimmer's aren't on the list that are allowed in Impassable terrain therefore they cannot go there.

Recall a ruin is a type of terrain (difficult). Other buildings can be labeled intact (Impassable). The words in the parenthesis are waht matters. A ruin is not Impassable terrain it is difficult terrain. A skimmer can land on top of impassable terrain, and nowhere do you have permission to land on top of a ruin.

The upper floors of a ruin are, by definition, impassable to skimmers.

rigeld2 wrote:I don't see how you can defend terrain that you cannot move through as not being impassable terrain.

If we were playing a game together, you would have agreed to it being Impassable Terrain or Ruins before the match started. 'Impassable' and 'Ruins' are not adjectives describing the Terrain in question, it is the proper name of the the agreed upon Terrain. How can you defend ignoring the Terrain Type to which you agreed and treating it like something else?

Ghenghis Jon wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:I don't see how you can defend terrain that you cannot move through as not being impassable terrain.

If we were playing a game together, you would have agreed to it being Impassable Terrain or Ruins before the match started. 'Impassable' and 'Ruins' are not adjectives describing the Terrain in question, it is the proper name of the the agreed upon Terrain. How can you defend ignoring the Terrain Type to which you agreed and treating it like something else?

I'm not. The upper levels of a Ruin are Impassable to skimmers.

rigeld2 wrote: The upper levels of a Ruin are Impassable to skimmers.

So you can embark your skimmers?

kirsanth wrote:

rigeld2 wrote: The upper levels of a Ruin are Impassable to skimmers.

So you can embark your skimmers?

I'm sorry? Where are you going with that?

rigeld2 wrote:I'm sorry? Where are you going with that?

Where skimmers cannot be placed.

rigeld2 wrote:

theironjef wrote:Well you're skipping a relevant question. If they are allowed in ruins, why aren't they on that list of units that are allowed in ruins?

Because they aren't allowed to move through ruins, which is what that sentence says (Accordingly, only Infantry, jetbikes, monstrous creatures, and walkers may move on the upper levels of a ruin - and only if the model can physically be placed there.)

Skimmers don't move through anything - it moves over (page 71, moving skimmers).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akroma06 wrote:It doesn't really matter why. I'm sorry but it doesn't. Skimmer's aren't on the list that are allowed in Impassable terrain therefore they cannot go there.

Recall a ruin is a type of terrain (difficult). Other buildings can be labeled intact (Impassable). The words in the parenthesis are waht matters. A ruin is not Impassable terrain it is difficult terrain. A skimmer can land on top of impassable terrain, and nowhere do you have permission to land on top of a ruin.

The upper floors of a ruin are, by definition, impassable to skimmers.

But it is not impassable terrain. That is all that matters. Is it impassable then yes you can land if its a ruin that is not impassable then no.

kirsanth wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:I'm sorry? Where are you going with that?

Where skimmers cannot be placed.

False link - thanks for the strawman.

There is a rule saying only Infantry can embark without a rule saying otherwise. There is a rule saying skimmers can land in impassable terrain. The top levels of Ruins are impassable to skimmers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akroma06 wrote:But it is not impassable terrain. That is all that matters. Is it impassable then yes you can land if its a ruin that is not impassable then no.

So it's not "terrain [that] cannot be moved across or into"?
So.. skimmers can move there.

rigeld2 wrote:So it's not "terrain [that] cannot be moved across or into"?

No, it is a terrain feature that is not labeled as Impassible Terrain - it is instead labeled as a terrain feature Skimmers are not allowed to be placed on. If it were Impassible Terrain infantry could not be there either.

Editing to add equal snark:
Even if it is impassible to skimmers it is not Impassible Terrain.

I forget, how many pages did this topic run last time?

rigeld2 wrote:So it's not "terrain [that] cannot be moved across or into"?

Are you saying that Ruins are Terrain that can be moved across and into?

kirsanth wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:So it's not "terrain [that] cannot be moved across or into"?

No, it is a terrain feature that is not labeled as Impassible Terrain - it is instead labeled as a terrain feature Skimmers are not allowed to be placed on. If it were Impassible Terrain infantry could not be there either.

Editing to add equal snark:
Even if it is impassible to skimmers it is not Impassible Terrain.

You know what, I'm done. I'll leave it with my first post in the thread.

rigeld2 wrote:

Akroma06 wrote:Actually you don't have to be able to set it up there from a pure RAW perspective. Wobbly Model Syndrome and all that. If it is impassible then it can land, if it is dangerous it can land (albeit with a test). Now it can't land on an occupied building, or within 1" of an enemy or on top of a friendly but otherwise I can't think of how that isn't legal.

The "question" about skimmers on the top floor of a ruin is that ruins are not impassible, skimmers are just not allowed to move above the ground floor.
The two sides are:
a) not allowed means impassable, so skimmers can land on the upper floors.
b) Ruins are not impassable, just restricted - so skimmers cannot land on the upper floors.

rigeld2 wrote:

kirsanth wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:I'm sorry? Where are you going with that?

Where skimmers cannot be placed.

False link - thanks for the strawman.

Out of curiosity, why the accusation? Both places allow infantry to move there and do not mention skimmers.

kirsanth wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

kirsanth wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:I'm sorry? Where are you going with that?

Where skimmers cannot be placed.

False link - thanks for the strawman.

Out of curiosity, why the accusation? Both places allow infantry to move there and do not mention skimmers.

Because of wording. There's no similarity between the wording of embarkation and the wording of the Ruins. Trying to link the two creates a strawman.

And without ruins being Impassible Terrain, how is saying they are the same any different?

That is why I am confused. I understand what a strawman is.

Ruins say X can move here.

Not that x CAN'T.

Unit types not in the exhaustive list of things alloerd in to the top of ruins are not allowed there; it doesn't make the terrain impassable terrain, it simply doesn't allow those models there.

The board edge is a place where no models may ppass, but it doesn't make anything off the board impassable(that would allow skimmers to super flank ) it is the same as what OS happening here

There is a restriction of the models allowed into a certain area, nothing more. There is no reclassification of terrain happening.

-cgmckenzie

OK, we all agree that Warhammer has a permissive rule set. In other words in order to something you must have permission.
Skimmers have permission to land on Impassable terrain. Certain units have permission to move up higher levels of ruins (not counting deployment).
On the other hand, I recall something in Cities of Death something about skimmers and ruins, maybe one of the stratagems?

kirsanth wrote:And without ruins being Impassible Terrain, how is saying they are the same any different?

That is why I am confused. I understand what a strawman is.

Ruins say X can move here.

Not that x CAN'T.

Because the upper floors of Ruins meet the definition of impassable terrain to a skimmer (among other unit types).
There's nothing remotely similar between the wording of rules around embarking and the rules relating to Ruins.

Happyjew wrote:On the other hand, I recall something in Cities of Death something about skimmers and ruins, maybe one of the stratagems?

The CoD rules only apply to CoD.

They did allow skimmers to hover above Ruins... but CoD has its own set of rules covering how Ruins work, since it was written in 4th edition when the core rules didn't have specific rules for them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:Because the upper floors of Ruins meet the definition of impassable terrain to a skimmer (among other unit types).

A large, heavily armoured warrior meets a certain definition of a Space Marine... but without the rules actually defining it as a Space Marine, it's not.

Certain models can not move on the upper floors of a Ruin... but without the Ruin being classed as Impassable, it's not Impassable. It's just somewhere that models are forbidden from going.

Happyjew wrote:OK, we all agree that Warhammer has a permissive rule set. In other words in order to something you must have permission.
Skimmers have permission to land on Impassable terrain. Certain units have permission to move up higher levels of ruins (not counting deployment).
On the other hand, I recall something in Cities of Death something about skimmers and ruins, maybe one of the stratagems?

Cities of Death is still connected to 4th edition rules. The definition of ruins then had a list of things that couldn't get up into them instead of a list of things that could, and skimmers could float around up there with impunity.

I love starting this argument btw, because it's a broken-game scenario. The definition of Impassible Terrain is a single largely useless sentence, and the stuff about movement of skimmers and ruins allowances use a bunch of seemingly relevant descriptors (through, above, in, on) that make it sound like there may be some extra trick we don't know about. But there isn't. It further allows for really nitpicky questions like "is terrain that can't be passed through Impassible" and "Is a ruin a building" the answers to which aren't universally accepted. It is significantly likely that 6th edition will answer it before GW answers it, but my guess is that they'll just leave it like it is, forever tormenting every player.