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Delephont wrote:Having read The Outcast Dead, and the other texts which discuss Custodes, I actually get the impression that GW (via the Black Library) are actively trying to "dillute" the earlier proposed superioty of the Custodes over Astartes warriors. In The Outcast Dead, they also bring into play the remnant of the Thunder Warriors, who are actually superior to Marines......
Well, if we're talking about The Outcast Dead, then I say.... THUNDER WARRIORS!
Not only do they seem to be able to casually beat up Astartes (which implies that they are at least the equal of Custodes) they're also immune to psychic powers. Ha! Take that, Grey Knights...
It seems that the Emperor made the strongest warriors first, and that with each advance in genhancing, the warriors got weaker but much more durable/reliable...
we're pretty sure that 1 GK can at least beat 2 ultramarines in H2H t(captain and sarge even, ok minus some wargear but w/e)
GK vs custodian, I'd have to give it to the custodian though I have no proof of this but I think the fluff probably would support it. It would be a very close fight though.
On the flip side, I still think 10,000 grots vs 1 custodian would see the grots on top.
hence, this 3 way fight would end up in Grots winning over all. /endthread
+ Thought of the day + Not even in death does duty end.
Custodes are like praetorians. Pronounced Pree, not pray, by the way.
Marines, in my honest opinion are better then your average fluff GK. On the basis that a marine will take you anywhere with anything and fight against all odds, even certain death.
GKs make a point of only going into battle if its necessary and even then they only choose specific targets [Daemons] That said, once in combat they are a marine and more.
Custodes are a defensive force. That said, I imagine if the emperah woke up, he could knock some heads with them!
Guys, they're just dudes in power armour. Maybe don't watch so much dragon ball.
Realistically, they're all going to be roughly equal, with internal variations because some people think martial arts is important even if everyone has guns. Every organization is going to have these people.
If by the best warrior you mean cage fighter, probably custodes will perform a bit better on average since they have so much free time from being a useless freeloader bodyguard force that doesn't do anything important.
If by warrior you mean soldier, then probably a space marine because that's pretty much what they are.
If by warrior you mean a lame incorruptible knight in shining armour then probably grey knights because their armour is the shiniest.
An average Custodes probably beats an average Marine or GK. They basically train their entire life and focus primarily on solo fighting tactics, I think once you get to more numbers on both sides things start to even out, the Custodes don't train as a squad or with combined arms very often. They get my vote one on one.
GK and regular Marine are probably tied, fluff-wise anyway. The GK are special mostly against psykers or daemons, and as fighters are usually not much more special than your standard Astartes. They get a slight edge with equipment I guess, but I wouldn't say it is a lot.
Astartes in terms of numbers. If the Imperium somehow pissed off the collective Astartes forces, they would doom themselves, Custodes and Grey Knights be damned.
Custodes in 1 on 1 fighting will win against almost any foe. I doubt they could defeat a full chapter of SM's or Grey Knights though.
Grey Knights vs a standard SM chapter, they will win. Maybe. I think the Ultramarines and other primary SM Chapters could give them a run for their money. The Black Templars probably couldn't be wiped out by them. They are a large chapter.
I know I derailed, but I'm just thinking out loud so to speak.
Now to the OP:
"Better Imperial Warrior"
This implies 1 on 1 battle, unarmored, unarmed.
Winner: Custode. Bigger than a SM. Personal bodyguard to the Emperor. Without weapons and no armor I think a Grey Knight and a regular Astartes would tie for 2nd.
Without any arms it could go either way for a Custodian or an Astartes. But a Grey Knight's psychic powers would mean he'd be making short work out of either.
Delephont wrote:I'm just reading Deliverance Lost, the latest in the HH series....and actually, according to this book, the Custodes are significantly better than Marines....I won't do any spoilers here, but there are numerous statements by various key individuals that out right state that Custodes are superior to Marines (regardless of rank!)...
You know, I'm beginning to wonder if your toying with some of us by opening this thread... In any case, you must have read a completely different book to me to make those statements. Though I haven't thoroughly read it yet, I have been able to quickly skim much of it and slow down on any details concerning Arcatus Vindix Centurio and his Custodian detachment. I've listed the most contentious quotes in the book below:
Spoiler:
p41: In height and size, they were the match of the Legiones Astartes, if not bigger, though Corax was taller still.
p41: Malcador bowed his head in greeting and Corax returned the gesture as his guard of honour filed into ranks behind him. ‘I hope they are for ornamentation and nothing else,’ said Corax, directing a purposeful gaze at the armed Custodians. ‘Purely ceremonial, I assure you,’ replied Malcador.
p43: Watching the gold-armoured figures of the Legio Custodes advancing ahead of him, Alpharius could not help but measure himself against them. Physically they did not seem to be any more impressive than a legionary, though certainly their armour and weapons seemed to be individually fashioned, something only a captain might expect in the Legions. He had heard before that each warrior was also a product of unique effort, as hand-crafted by the gene-enhancers and tech-serfs as his wargear was by artisans of the Mechanicum. Since he had gunned down several Salamanders at the drop-site, he had been confident that the Alpha Legion were the match of any in the Legionnaires Astartes, but it was not until he had been confronted by the ranks of the Custodian Guard that he had contemplated fighting against the Emperor’s other servants.
p70: Your warriors [the Custodes] see the hardest fighting because they are the best under my command. You and your men have abilities even above those of my legionaries and so it is against the toughest challenges you have been pitched.
p71: A single blow would fell Arcatus [Leader of the Custodian Retinue] and the Raven Guard had the other Custodians surrounded, though the gold-armoured warriors would surely slay many legionaries before they fell.
p139: On a rooftop further from the wall, two more drop-pods were opening up Custodian Guard in their gleaming gold armour stormed out, unleashing bursts of energy from their guardian spears, cracking open the power armour of their foes.
Conclusions? There's nothing new in this book regarding their differences that we didn't already know. While plenty of opinions suggesting their superiority nothing here speaks of them being I wouldn't call it any more significant than what has been previously stated in other BL novels. I certainly don't think it retcons anything and The First Heretic does a lot more to back up the superiority of the Custodes than this. Furthermore this novel does not make use of any Custodian ranks as far as I'm aware. Of course I may have skipped some part not listed and if so feel free to post it. But based on that? Nah, you're having a lark...
ArbitorIan wrote:Not only do they seem to be able to casually beat up Astartes (which implies that they are at least the equal of Custodes) they're also immune to psychic powers. Ha! Take that, Grey Knights...
And what if the Grey Knights don't directly assault the Thunder Warriors with their powers but use them to enhance their physique? Thunder Warrior's maybe durable to your average Astartes' swipe but I'd like to see them take a Hammerhand smiting...
Scipio Africanus wrote:GKs make a point of only going into battle if its necessary and even then they only choose specific targets [Daemons] That said, once in combat they are a marine and more.
Panopticon wrote:GK and regular Marine are probably tied, fluff-wise anyway. The GK are special mostly against psykers or daemons, and as fighters are usually not much more special than your standard Astartes. They get a slight edge with equipment I guess, but I wouldn't say it is a lot.
Not really. Looks like you missed my info on the first page: Grey Knights have had no qualms smiting other chapters if they cross a certain line. The recent codex also detailed how an battle-worn and vastly-outnumbered Brotherhood was able to break an entire WAGH just to save the local populace! No daemons even involved there...
Panopticon wrote:An average Custodes probably beats an average Marine or GK. They basically train their entire life and focus primarily on solo fighting tactics, I think once you get to more numbers on both sides things start to even out, the Custodes don't train as a squad or with combined arms very often. They get my vote one on one.
Actually, the Custodians training also revolves around ceremonial duties and learning about policies such as intergalactic etiquette. Yup, very battle orientated... ...By comparison Grey Knights are one of the most secretive Imperial sects there is and dedicate their time to perfecting their craft. Furthermore, as any soldier will tell you, proper wartime experience makes up for a lot. The Grey Knights see it regularly in 40k, yet the Custodes have seen rarely little of since the Heresy.
This message was edited 15 times. Last update was at 2012/01/16 20:42:20
I belive the Custodes, are the better 'Warriors'.
Why else would the Emperor employ his finest Martial troops to protect him.
A perfect example are the Romans. The Roman army was invincible in its day much like the Asartes.
But the Roman Emperors chose to employ separate soldiers as their personnel guard.
These were called The Praetorian Guard, much like the Custodes and were the finest and best trained soldiers available.
The grey knights are Specialised Astartes soldiers and use equipment suited to their primary purpose , ie demon slaying
You ask who the better warriors are I say the Custodian Guard. If Astartes are superior then why didn't the emperor just employ Astartes as his personnel guard instead
"You strive for victory. That is obvious. What may be less obvious is the nature of victory. There are circumstances in which you can destroy the enemy utterly, without loss to your own forces, and yet the victory may be his. In all situations, you must first decide on the nature of victory, and then take steps to secure it. Avoid the instinct of fight first and think later." ( Leman Russ )
Depends on who the individual representing the Space Marines is. Certain individuals (Ragnar) would certainly put up more of a fight than any random marine.
one on one it would be a damn close call between custodes and Grey Knights considering that Grey Knights are accustomed to fighting much more powerful beings, plus being supplanted with psyker powers and ludicrous amounts of training (UM novel 4 for reference).
For a pitched battle that is very hard to call.
If all three sides were to bring about a chapter sized force on an open field without external support via alliances, I would give it to the standard astartes.
If any given faction had surprise they would win
. If support was brought in it would vary upon the Astartes chapter in question, if it was Dark Angels protecting their secret I would say that they may be able to pull enough support to win against Grey Knights and custodes would be obliterated, however if this fight was on terra, or guerrilla warfare could be used Custodes would be nigh untouchable, due to the nature of their training.(note I am largely pulling them winning at guerrilla out of thin air, but considering what they are trained to do it is not a far stretch)
DA 4000 points W/L/D 6e 3/2/0
IG 1500 points W/L/D 6e 0/2/0
And 100% Primed!
One on one i believe a custodes would annihilate a SM or a GK. However, having said that GK and SM are incredible warriors in their own right. The Custodes were made to be their superior.
"You have ruled this galaxy for ten thousand years, yet have little of account to show for you efforts. Order. Unity. Obedience. We taught the galaxy these things, and we shall do so again."
Greyish wrote:Actually, the Custodians training also revolves around ceremonial duties and learning about policies such as intergalactic etiquette. Yup, very battle orientated... ...By comparison Grey Knights are one of the most secretive Imperial sects there is and dedicate their time to perfecting their craft. Furthermore, as any soldier will tell you, proper wartime experience makes up for a lot. The Grey Knights see it regularly in 40k, yet the Custodes have seen rarely little of since the Heresy.
They learn everything. They are master warriors as well as master bureaucrats. They regularly test their own security by discarding their armor and insignia and attempting to infiltrate their own facilities, which means they either succeed and live or they fail and are killed because that's what happens when you try to sneak into the palace.
The main advantage the Grey Knights have is their psykic powers. However, the Custodes are near the EMPEROR! His power has been shown to manifest in their armour as a shield from psykic attacks.
2000 points
1500 points
"Ascension is the prize, spawning the punishment. I walk the path of the Champion, and worlds burn in my wake"
"Space marines always outnumber the enemy. Always. Near the end of the battle." -Captain Septimus of the Death Stalkers to a new Initiate
McNinja wrote:Are Grey Knights well trained? Yes. But while a squad of GKs would try to maintain coherency and fight as a unit, the Custodians would split up and attack separately, most likely surrounding the unit and forcing each GK into a one on one fight, which the Gk would lose. Custodians have the most intense hand-to-hand/CQC training in the Imperium, and are trained to fight as an individual, not as a unit. They don't worry about their brothers, they just go forth and lay waste to their enemies.
That makes no sense. The idea in the fluff is that Astartes (and presumably GK) are more effective team-players whereas Custodes are deadlier single combatants. The high unit coherency of the Astartes would be an advantage in team vs. team combat, whereas the much weaker unit coherency of the Custodes would be a disadvantage, not the other way around as you're suggesting...
Finally, in Blood Games, it is clearly stated
No one would be foolish enough to predict the outcome of a contest between an Astartes and a custodes.
So please stop this Custodes w@nk. Also, ADB has stated that Vendatha and his friends in The First Heretic are not average Custodes. They're extremely skilled even by Custodes standards. Think about it, they're hand-picked to watch over Lorgar and his legion.
There's no reason to believe a Custodes would steamroll a GK.
McNinja wrote: They learn everything. They are master warriors as well as master bureaucrats. They regularly test their own security by discarding their armor and insignia and attempting to infiltrate their own facilities, which means they either succeed and live or they fail and are killed because that's what happens when you try to sneak into the palace.
...
No worries, I actually have Blood Games and re-read much of it today. Despite the misleading name they never intend to kill each other in the Blood Games, though they do take the fighting to extremes. And of course, it doesn't stop strangers trying to kill them either. Otherwise we're in agreement anyway.
gabrielhorus wrote:The main advantage the Grey Knights have is their psykic powers. However, the Custodes are near the EMPEROR! His power has been shown to manifest in their armour as a shield from psykic attacks.
Hey, let's leave the 'instant win button' at home on this one...
This message was edited 12 times. Last update was at 2012/01/19 08:57:56
McNinja wrote:Are Grey Knights well trained? Yes. But while a squad of GKs would try to maintain coherency and fight as a unit, the Custodians would split up and attack separately, most likely surrounding the unit and forcing each GK into a one on one fight, which the Gk would lose. Custodians have the most intense hand-to-hand/CQC training in the Imperium, and are trained to fight as an individual, not as a unit. They don't worry about their brothers, they just go forth and lay waste to their enemies.
That makes no sense. The idea in the fluff is that Astartes (and presumably GK) are more effective team-players whereas Custodes are deadlier single combatants. The high unit coherency of the Astartes would be an advantage in team vs. team combat, whereas the much weaker unit coherency of the Custodes would be a disadvantage, not the other way around as you're suggesting...
Finally, in Blood Games, it is clearly stated
No one would be foolish enough to predict the outcome of a contest between an Astartes and a custodes.
So please stop this Custodes w@nk. Also, ADB has stated that Vendatha and his friends in The First Heretic are not average Custodes. They're extremely skilled even by Custodes standards. Think about it, they're hand-picked to watch over Lorgar and his legion.
There's no reason to believe a Custodes would steamroll a GK.
1. They are a group of 10,000 genetically-engineered superhumans who are even more potent in combat that the Adeptus Astartes who serve as the Emperor's personal guardians and praetorian bodyguard.
2. They are the "Dread Guardians," and the only living beings permitted to walk beside the Emperor. The Custodes were the greatest group of physiologically and psychologically-enhanced troops the Emperor had ever created, ten thousand strong and the best trained, most disciplined and most vigilant watchmen in the Imperium. Now ensconced deep within the Sanctum Imperialis on Terra, they watch over the corporeal body of the Emperor.
3. The Custodes are slightly larger and stronger than even the superhuman Space Marines.
4. The Custodes are warriors unmatched in the galaxy, genetically-engineered by the Emperor himself. The Emperor engineered few of these warriors once the swifter method for creating superhuman warriors using Space Marine gene-seed became more viable.
5. It has been said that the Adeptus Custodes are to a Space Marine what a Space Marine is to a member of the Imperial Guard.
6. They stand a full head taller than a Space Marine and it is said that they were almost the same size as a Primarch. In fact it was said that Constantine Valdor, Captain-General of the Lego Custodes and Chief Custodian to the Emperor during the Horus Hersey, was the same size as the Traitor Primarch Alpharius of the Alpha Legion.
That list took me about 10minutes to write up using information that is readily available in books, and if you dont have them theres always the interwebz. This discussion isnt so much a spank over the custodes as it is wishful thinking on behalf of the other parties. The custodes ARE the stronger warrior one on one, there is no question about it. They were made to be superiors to any other warrior in the Imperium in every single way. Think of it like an SM being a normal sedan, a GK being a 4x4 and a custodes being a hummer. There is no comparison.
"You have ruled this galaxy for ten thousand years, yet have little of account to show for you efforts. Order. Unity. Obedience. We taught the galaxy these things, and we shall do so again."
Thatguy91 wrote: Think of it like an SM being a normal sedan, a GK being a 4x4 and a custodes being a hummer. There is no comparison.
For the purposes of this metaphor, an Imperial Guardsman is a tricycle.
or a wheel attached to a board...
because you need wheels!!!! Not the most effective mode of transport, but effective if you have tonnes of them!
Very well put, nuff said
"You strive for victory. That is obvious. What may be less obvious is the nature of victory. There are circumstances in which you can destroy the enemy utterly, without loss to your own forces, and yet the victory may be his. In all situations, you must first decide on the nature of victory, and then take steps to secure it. Avoid the instinct of fight first and think later." ( Leman Russ )
Warrior and Soldier are not interchangable. They are two entirely seperate concepts.
But the best warrior would be the Custodes. They are the best in hand to hand one on one combat. Other wise they wouldnt have the honor of guarding the Emperor.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Iron Snake you are aware that there are millions of guardsmen for every 1 space marine. If its a Guard vs Marine war, Guard wins, seeing as a marine is worth 10 other troops.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/01/19 09:46:56
You misunderstand the differences between the two. The 'warriors, not soldiers' description comes from Page 112 in the The First Heretic and was intended to denote the difference between how they both fight as a unit. The terms have nothing to do with their individual, close-combat prowess.
Thatguy91 wrote:... That list took me about 10minutes to write up using information that is readily available in books, and if you dont have them theres always the interwebz. This discussion isnt so much a spank over the custodes as it is wishful thinking on behalf of the other parties. The custodes ARE the stronger warrior one on one, there is no question about it. They were made to be superiors to any other warrior in the Imperium in every single way. Think of it like an SM being a normal sedan, a GK being a 4x4 and a custodes being a hummer. There is no comparison.
Lol, you can tell it only took 10 mins. Taken straight from the likes of w40k wikia right? It's a very unreliable source at best. Looking through the page it's no wonder fans see the Custodes as so untouchable if they use this site as their primary source, rather than if they had actually read the books instead. It may have references listed at the bottom of the page but the wiki's writers have either distorted them (points 3 & 6) or they just completely fabricated any descriptions without quoting any proper sources (points 1,2 & 4). Also let's not forget that the quote from Collected Visions in Point 5 is only ever given as a 'rumour tale', not as actual fact.
Funnily enough (or perhaps more upsetting to the GK haters) is that a similar statement has been written about the Grey Knights, on page 27, of C :GK without the whole “it is rumoured” nonsense:
Spoiler:
To pursue to endless war against the Daemons of Chaos takes more than a mere Space Marine. It takes a Grey Knight - an altogether more difficile warrior who is as far above other Space Marines as Space Marines are above the common run of humanity.
This message was edited 17 times. Last update was at 2012/01/19 21:06:18
opinion: its a fair fight, that if given enough attempts, the three will tie, given fair surcumstances of course.
Why i think that: Take the tiger tank for example, against a sherman in an open feild the tiger will win most of the time. now put the 2 in a city, and the sherman will win most of the time.
Now, if I absolutly have to choose: Grey Knights
Why: the best way to test this is in game. Well the custodes don't have any official rules, so they're out. now the GK's have better stats and equipment, so odds are they will come out on top agianst a standard Astrates.
Question: Why is the Emporer allowing his forces to fight amongst them selves? Thats a recipe for disaster, and its the last thing the imperuim needs.
Is it just me or the part of arguements including "made by the emperor himself" kinda funny. Last I checked he made them all. lol. If gk squad can kill stuff like Ghargatuloth. I think they can kill your custodians of the golden toilet. You cant even use fluff armor as an arguement since well duh the entire debate is fluff debate. The writer picks your winner!
The enemy of my enemy is a bastard so lets kill him too.
2500pt 
3-1-1 
0-0-2 
2-1-2
0-3-0 
1-1-0 
0-2-0
1-0-0 
0-1-0 
0-1-0
W/L/D 6e 3/2/0
