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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




azazel the cat wrote:
The definition is too broad. Under that language, The Pirate Bay DOES have significant use, as it is a file sharing network that can be used for open-source programs and public-domain files. "Credible evidence" is not defined, and in civil law it is not deemed as 'beyond a reasonable doubt', but rather 'more likely than not'. That is a scary amount of ill-defined power, and I am glad that I am not subject to laws like that.


This language is not unusual for US laws. "Credible evidence" and "acting in good faith" are both legal terms with precedents set for interpretation.


azazel the cat wrote:The most alarming part of the PIPA bill, however, is that it precludes sites from being able to share knowledge of how to circumvent those laws. I believe you have at least two constitutional rights that are in violation due to the language of PIPA.


Can you provide a quote from the PIPA bill that supports this argument? I can't seem to find any language that would allow this.


Edit: Ninja'd
Oh, and it most definitely would shut down YouTube. Just type in any song or band name, and you'll see why.

YouTube has a system for reporting copyright infringements. They comply with DMCA claims. Many artists/labels now have agreements with YouTube and have licensed content for streaming. I don't think it would be difficult for YouTube to show that the majority of their views are for original content produced by partners and licensed content from media outlets.

Unlike The Pirate Bay, which is essentially a search engine for torrents. It in itself does nothing other than allow you to find torrents. The majority of the tracked torrents indexed by TPB were copyright infringing material. I am aware that many "legal" things are shared in torrents, but I seriously doubt that even 1% of the traffic at any of the major torrent index sites are for legal material. I would love to be proven otherwise!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/01/18 23:28:53


 
   
Made in ca
Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord





That's the same argument as saying that you should shut down all roads because they are being used to allow people to drive drunk.

And YouTube really doesn't have very good software to protect from copyright infringement. This should be self-evident.


EDIT: I apologize. I think I said that the anti-circumvention legislation was part of PIPA, when it is in fact part of SOPA. That is my error and I apologize for any confusion.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/01/18 23:43:32


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





The Golden Throne

I know craigslist is all bugged out about this.
   
Made in us
Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch





azazel the cat wrote:
biccat wrote:
azazel the cat wrote:Why don't you read the language used in SOPA?

DMCA has very tight restrictions on what can be targeted. SOPA, on the other hand, is so broad that almost everything on the Internet is defined as 'potentially for the purpose of copyright infringement'. And that includes EVERY WEBSITE WITH A MESSAGE BOARD

Please read the SOPA bill before you comment further. That's all I ask: just read the bill.

I did read the bill. I kinda like it. There are some parts that are problematic, but it's actually pretty decent.

I also have sent out DMCA notices. The standard is laughably easy to meet.

Oh, do you have a website? What's the URL?

I'm an IP lawyer. I send DMCA notices for clients.

text removed by Moderation team. 
   
Made in ca
Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord





Ah, that's why you are in favour of SOPA: minor personal gain at the expense of the public good.

EDIT: Well, when first they come for the websites, you will say nothing because you do not have a web site.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/01/19 02:06:27


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





The Golden Throne

biccat wrote:
azazel the cat wrote:
biccat wrote:
azazel the cat wrote:Why don't you read the language used in SOPA?

DMCA has very tight restrictions on what can be targeted. SOPA, on the other hand, is so broad that almost everything on the Internet is defined as 'potentially for the purpose of copyright infringement'. And that includes EVERY WEBSITE WITH A MESSAGE BOARD

Please read the SOPA bill before you comment further. That's all I ask: just read the bill.

I did read the bill. I kinda like it. There are some parts that are problematic, but it's actually pretty decent.

I also have sent out DMCA notices. The standard is laughably easy to meet.

Oh, do you have a website? What's the URL?

I'm an IP lawyer. I send DMCA notices for clients.


So whats all the drama about? Is it hype? Can you translate the legalese if you don't mind?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/01/19 02:36:47


 
   
Made in us
!!Goffik Rocker!!





(THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK)

biccat wrote:
azazel the cat wrote:
biccat wrote:
azazel the cat wrote:Why don't you read the language used in SOPA?

DMCA has very tight restrictions on what can be targeted. SOPA, on the other hand, is so broad that almost everything on the Internet is defined as 'potentially for the purpose of copyright infringement'. And that includes EVERY WEBSITE WITH A MESSAGE BOARD

Please read the SOPA bill before you comment further. That's all I ask: just read the bill.

I did read the bill. I kinda like it. There are some parts that are problematic, but it's actually pretty decent.

I also have sent out DMCA notices. The standard is laughably easy to meet.

Oh, do you have a website? What's the URL?

I'm an IP lawyer. I send DMCA notices for clients.


Since when.

----------------

Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad 
   
Made in us
Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch





azazel the cat wrote:Ah, that's why you are in favour of SOPA: minor personal gain at the expense of the public good.

Lol. Yeah, obviously.

ShumaGorath wrote:Since when.

I passed the bar in 2007. I think my first takedown request was in '08 against a company copying my client's software.

Byte wrote:So whats all the drama about? Is it hype? Can you translate the legalese if you don't find?

A client comes to me and says "this website is letting people download my software." And it is. It's drawing business from the client's website; people aren't buying his product because they can get it for free.

If the company is located in the US we send a Cease & Desist letter. If that doesn't work we sue them.

But what if the company isn't a US company? Say they're a Chinese company. Well, before DMCA we didn't have any recourse against these companies, unless you wanted to go to the expense of suing in a foreign country (who probably won't rule against you because you're not Chinese). DMCA came along and gave authority over websites hosted in the US, on the theory that the website is physically located in the US.

So now we send the company a letter then send a DMCA takedown request to the hosting company.

But what if they're not a US company and had the foresight to host their website in another country? Under the current law we're SOL, because there's no jurisdiction over either the company or the website. SOPA recognizes this problem and gives authority over domain names, ISPs (you tell the ISP where you want to go, the ISP gets the information from the website and gives it to you*), advertisers and financial service providers.

So now I can send a notification to the website that they're infringing my client's copyright. If they dispute this then they send me a counter-notification that they don't infringe and consent to US jurisdiction (meaning I can sue them in the US to resolve this issue). If they don't send the counter-notification then I sue the website and go to any advertisers (Google Ads) or financial service providers (Paypal) and force them to stop serving that website.

There's also another provision that allows the attorney general to enforce the act. They gain the additional authority to tell ISPs (once they've got a court order) to (essentially) de-register the domain name of the infringing site. This only applies to criminal copyright acts.

This is the part I have the biggest problem with; giving the AG authority over ISPs when they're not parties to the suit. This could be better resolved through ICANN.

* Well, sort of, but not really. But this is a good enough understanding for now

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/01/19 02:05:24


text removed by Moderation team. 
   
Made in ca
Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord





Byte wrote:So whats all the drama about? Is it hype? Can you translate the legalese if you don't find?

Just look for my post on the first page. I put it in layman's terms.

EDIT: What Biccat is conveniently forgetting to mention, is that under SOPA, he is not required to notify the offending company; he can actually skip that step and just go after the advertisers and banking systems. At which point the offending company can agree to become subject to US law: and in doing so, can be asked if their site allows piracy. If the company answers 'no', then they have committed perjury because the broad definition of piracy-endorsing sites under SOPA includes anything with a message board and are then subject to criminal law.

Long story short, the law will allow the RIAA, amongst others, to exercise North Korea-like level of censorship and control over the American people.

If you want a good comparison to see the proper scope of SOPA, it's basically going to bring back the McCarthy-era blacklists to companies on a global scale:

"Have you ever committed piracy or hosted a message board?"
--> "yes" ---> company gets blacklisted from ISPs, Visa, PayPal, Amex, advertisers, etc under fear that they now become liable.
--> "no" ---> criminal perjury charges.

EDIT: Oh, and Biccat, your fine print of "Well, sort of, but not really. But this is a good enough understanding for now" is a DANGEROUS position to take, because it shows that you have not considered the long-term repercussions of your current mindset. This is the attitude many people had when the USAPatriot Act was voted on, and now your government can bag your head during a rendition action and hold you without habeus corpus.


This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/01/19 02:21:54


 
   
Made in us
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killeen TX

If this goes through, I will be saving money each month by not having an internet provider, seeing as how I won't have the internet.

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Tunneling Trygon





Bradley Beach, NJ

The odds of these bills being passed in their current form are negligible, they are already being rejected by the Obama administration and a good deal of acting politicians. Don't get me wrong, these bills are monstrosities, but they're not getting passed as is, they will be edited before they can even have a chance.

Hive Fleet Aquarius 2-1-0


http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/527774.page 
   
Made in ca
Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord





But the point is that everyone in the USA that does not own or run a massive corporation should make it clear to their congressman that any bills even close to infringing on your freedoms like these will not be tolerated. Allowing someone to crap on your plate the first time only to crap slightly less on your plate the second time is exactly the game plan, because then, when you're eating slightly less crap, it won't seem as bad by comparison.

Never, ever let your elected members stop being afraid of you. This seems to be a lesson that is completely lost in most of the US. (at least, this is generally the impression that we get up North here. Perhaps I'm very mistaken)
   
Made in gb
Hauptmann




In the belly of the whale.

SOPA only effects American based website. The USA cannot enforce global internet laws. One country cannot govern the internet, and the laws one country passes does not effect the UK.

That's like saying "I cannot be put in the electric chair in the USA, because Capital Punishment is illegal in the UK."

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Made in us
!!Goffik Rocker!!





(THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK)

DeadlySquirrel wrote:SOPA only effects American based website. The USA cannot enforce global internet laws. One country cannot govern the internet, and the laws one country passes does not effect the UK.

That's like saying "I cannot be put in the electric chair in the USA, because Capital Punishment is illegal in the UK."


Laws in the U.S. regarding the internet tend to effect the whole of the global internet though since most of it's most indespensible services Are hosted here.

I passed the bar in 2007. I think my first takedown request was in '08 against a company copying my client's software.


This is startling.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/01/19 02:34:13


----------------

Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad 
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Chicago, Illinois

While most of these comments do seem true. The SOPA act is a horrible piece of work, and many people agree.

It will not get passed. I believe there is such a massive backlash from the web. And the only people are supporting it are the people that will benefit from it. But Even some companies that do see the problem with it. And are backing down. 2 major supporters just left.

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Made in us
Tunneling Trygon





Bradley Beach, NJ

DeadlySquirrel wrote:SOPA only effects American based website. The USA cannot enforce global internet laws. One country cannot govern the internet, and the laws one country passes does not effect the UK.

That's like saying "I cannot be put in the electric chair in the USA, because Capital Punishment is illegal in the UK."


The US government, or at least some members of it, like(s) to see the internet in its entirety as its own possession, there's no saying how far they will try to go.

Hive Fleet Aquarius 2-1-0


http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/527774.page 
   
Made in ca
Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord





DeadlySquirrel wrote:SOPA only effects American based website. The USA cannot enforce global internet laws. One country cannot govern the internet, and the laws one country passes does not effect the UK.

That's like saying "I cannot be put in the electric chair in the USA, because Capital Punishment is illegal in the UK."

But any US funding is subject to be blacklisted. For example, if I have a company in China, and a website hosted in Russia, but I receive my money via PayPal, then under SOPA, the USA can prosecute PayPal for supporting me.



EDIT: grammar

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/01/19 02:37:37


 
   
Made in us
Homicidal Veteran Blood Angel Assault Marine





Los Angeles

Horst wrote: Sure, we would effectively have to pay for internet, but how much is a proxy in europe?


A whole lot more than now if SOPA passes

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/01/19 02:57:30


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Made in gb
Dispassionate Imperial Judge






HATE Club, East London

azazel the cat wrote:EDIT: Oh, and Biccat, your fine print of "Well, sort of, but not really. But this is a good enough understanding for now" is a DANGEROUS position to take, because it shows that you have not considered the long-term repercussions of your current mindset. This is the attitude many people had when the USAPatriot Act was voted on, and now your government can bag your head during a rendition action and hold you without habeus corpus.


I believe biccat's 'fine print' was an asterisk linked to his point about how ISPs work, rather than a 'fine print' to his whole statement.

   
Made in au
Lady of the Lake






He wasn't too far off of the description anyway. It was simple, but didn't need to be complex in the first place.

You type the information in, the ISP passes it onto a series of servers which resolve the name and pass back the information to the ISP that then passes it to you. If I remember correctly it is read from right to left.

For example for "www.dakkadakka.com" it would also read it as ".com.dakkadakka.www", the ISP would pass it out to ".com" which would go through the listings it contains and return the address if it can find it, otherwise it'd pass it onto another which would contain it. Also ".com" should be spread over several of these servers, the majority of which should reside in the US. Basically when you enter an address your computer goes "Does anyone know where url is?", they then reply if they do or not before you go there. Unless you're not using TCP in the case of video streams, which in that case it just throws it at you and doesn't wait for you to confirm if you're receiving it right. But, this is way overboard what was needed.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/01/19 03:39:46


   
Made in ca
Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord





Fair enough, while that is a very simplistic description of how hypertext transfer protocols work, I concede that it is perfectly sufficient for our debate here.

biccat wrote:But what if they're not a US company and had the foresight to host their website in another country? Under the current law we're SOL, because there's no jurisdiction over either the company or the website. SOPA recognizes this problem and gives authority over domain names, ISPs (you tell the ISP where you want to go, the ISP gets the information from the website and gives it to you*), advertisers and financial service providers.

However, here is where the fundamental problem lies: SOPA is created by sanctimonious turds-with-haircuts that believe the broken and corrupt US legal system should be forced upon the rest of the world. And I'm well aware that I'm editorializing quite a bit, however it is plain to see that the current US judicial system has some seriously flawed core mechanics to it. While those mechanics originally had good intentions, they have unfortunately become twisted in order to crush the 'little guy'.
   
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Fireknife Shas'el




All over the U.S.

@squidmanlolz- The obama administration said the same thing about the ndaa, yet mr. obama signed the ndaa into law before x-mas.

@biccat- Just because a law can be concieved of doesn't mean that it shoulb be enacted. The first rule of good law making is to write laws that the are realistically enforceable and the second is to enact only the laws that the people want/or benefit the nation as a whole......not just the gov., the corps., or the lawyers.


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Made in au
Trustworthy Shas'vre






The problems with SOPA as I can see it, is that:
1) it has the potential to break the DNS system. This could quite easily break access to websites from other countries.
2) It becomes easier to issue 'takedown notices'
3) the accused party does not need to be notified of said takedown notice

4) The use of the DMCA has shown that a large proportion (Google says over 50%) of notices are used to oppress opposing businesses. Look at the number of startups in various media-sharing technologies: Youtube, Netflix, Spotify, Grooveshark... None of them would exist if this law came into place, as companies who were supposedly wronged could get them shut down without notice or trial.

5) It hampers the growth of the technology industry. Investors are going to be understandably reluctant to fund startups who can be shut down in a blink.

6) It won't stop piracy anyway. Piracy is a service problem more than a monetary one: people get better service from pirates than they do from legal options. The success of iTunes goes to show that users will pay money (and lots of it) if the service is comparable.

7) It puts undue burden on website owners to police user uploaded content for links to infringing sites.

8) It sets up the legal framework for much wider censorship. Some countries in the world have experienced this already esp in government-imposed anti-porn filters.
   
Made in au
Devious Space Marine dedicated to Tzeentch





biccat wrote:
Swara wrote:You kind of like it? Then you don't understand what effects it's going to have...


I'm not sure what else to say.

I probably understand better than most.


If you actually like it, then no, no you really bloody don't.

You want to give corporations more power over content than they currently have? You like the fact that they have a noted history of abuse when it comes to copyright claims and you like the fact that they'll be able to abuse their power further if these bills come into force?
Don't know what to say mate other than you clearly don't understand the effects this bill will have if it comes into force.

Edit: To those folks who don't know what SOPA / PIPA is here's a short video detailing what it is and what the effects of it will be.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/01/19 13:37:43


 
   
Made in de
Slippery Ultramarine Scout Biker




Cologne, Germany

to be honest, I'm a little concerned about this after reading Judge's explanations. In fact, from my understanding, this does have an effect on foreign message boards not resident in the US as well.
If some of my users link to videos on youtube or pictures on photobucket, which violate copyrights, I as administrator/owner of the message board can be made responsible for this and possibly be sued under US law.. as a german citizen...
heavy stuff, if I'm correct and to be honest a reason to shut down my message board as fast as possbile when SOPA goes active, even as a foreign user.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/01/19 08:02:34


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Made in gb
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Yorkshire, UK

If the US wants to enact laws in detriment to its own citizens, then that's up to them. I'll just watch and wait for inevitable backlash and cheer on the revolution when it comes

If the US tries to enact laws that in any way dare to infringe on the sovereignty of other nation states as elements of this bill are so clearly designed to do (and for the primary purpose of ensuring the continuing staggering wealth inequality of the 1% - anyone who thinks this is about ensuring fair and reasonable legal protection for the 'little guy' is deluded) then they are in for a rude awakening.

Countries that value free speech will simply not allow their citizens to be tried under the US legal system or sued by US civil courts. The internet will migrate away from the US and the economic implications are staggering.

This is one of the worst pieces of legislation I have ever encountered and is corporate cronyism of the highest order. I would be astonished if a thorough investigation did not turn up significant financial incentives being dangled in front of the bill sponsors by those few companies/individuals who would actually benefit from this.

Come on America - show the rest of the world you really are the land of the free and consign this piece of trash and the blithering idiots who wrote it to the dust.

While you sleep, they'll be waiting...

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Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot




New York, USA

^lol "thorough" investigation, THIS. IS. AMERICA! lobbyists have too much power here and with "citizens united" corporations are people who can donate infinitely and anonymously to politicians, we will never know what bribes they were given.

Still, Facebook and the interwebs here are awash in anti-SOPA post and links to how to contact senators/representatives, if it wasn't for the website blackouts, the news would NEVER even have reported on it, since they are owned by the corporations that want it passed, THATS the part that really upsets me, all the newspapers and tv media are corporate owned, if those corporations work together, all we have is the internet, thats why they want to slap a collar on it and make it bark like a dog. Gen Y is mad a hell and we arent going to take it anymore! So for those not living in america, be assured, this will not pass.

P.S. also its slowly dawning on people that SOPA means no more free porn...

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Made in ca
Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord





Chimera_Calvin wrote:The internet will migrate away from the US and the economic implications are staggering.

This is one of the worst pieces of legislation I have ever encountered and is corporate cronyism of the highest order. I would be astonished if a thorough investigation did not turn up significant financial incentives being dangled in front of the bill sponsors by those few companies/individuals who would actually benefit from this.

I believe this is what is referred to in marksmanship as the 'double tap'. You've got it exactly correct. The SOPA legislation is created out of the fears held by the old guard. Most major copyright-holding parent companies recognize that they do not have the kind of control over their intellectual property that hey would like, thanks in part to most countries not being as corrupt and one-sided as the US is with corporations. So legislation like SOPA is created, their Death Star, so to speak. And it will have two effects: first, it will give corporations unopposed control of multimedia in the US. And second, it will drive the entire market for that multimedia outside the US in opposition. Just like you said, Chimera_Calvin.

On a side note, I, for one hope that the UK becomes the overall 'center' of the Internet when the USA's Internet presence becomes akin to a ghost town, because I do not feel like learning German (based on my understanding that aside from English, German is the 2nd most used European language.)
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

I, as a Swede, welcome this law. Facebook's already opened a large server hall in Sweden, creating many jobs in the IT sector. If web pages had to be hosted somewhere else, it'd be beneficial for Sweden, seeing as our climate is good for server halls (reduced cooling costs).

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Tunneling Trygon





Bradley Beach, NJ

It doesn't help when the committee who is responsible for these bills barely understands what the internet IS, and repeatedly ask for "nerds" to tell them what these bills would do.

Hive Fleet Aquarius 2-1-0


http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/527774.page 
   
 
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