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You say superstitious, I say stupid.

And uh, no, they had been suspecting Magnus planting a spy in their ranks, but for some reason never saw fit to so much as try to tell anyone, and instead chose to keep it to themselves because they thought there could be no other possibility.

Not to mention... how did Russ know that Magnus was "sealed in his tower being all emo and not talking to anyone"? Can Russ see through time and space? Not that I know of. So he had no reason to not try some more mundane method of communication.

Skits wrote:Not to mention... how did Russ know that Magnus was "sealed in his tower being all emo and not talking to anyone"? Can Russ see through time and space? Not that I know of. So he had no reason to not try some more mundane method of communication.

There's nothing that says he didn't previously try to contact him by astropath or near-comms. It is clear in ATS and PB that Magnus is locked in and not talking to anyone, so either way Russ wouldn't get him on the phone.

If found the novel overall disappointing.

pretre wrote:

Skits wrote:Not to mention... how did Russ know that Magnus was "sealed in his tower being all emo and not talking to anyone"? Can Russ see through time and space? Not that I know of. So he had no reason to not try some more mundane method of communication.

There's nothing that says he didn't previously try to contact him by astropath or near-comms. It is clear in ATS and PB that Magnus is locked in and not talking to anyone, so either way Russ wouldn't get him on the phone.

Honestly, him making even a stupid attempt to communicate was out of character for the personality established in previous novels. Russ was always picking fights with his brothers, and had a particular hard-on for hating on Magnus. The Wolves weren't going to raze Prospero because all other options had been exhausted, they were dying to get in that scrap. Magnus shouldn't have given into his merciful nature, and just annihilated the whole Legion when given the opportunity. As it was, the Wolves' contribution to the resolution of the Heresy was negligible.

As for repetition in the novel, the Wolves did have their saying of "I recognize my error, and will strive to correct it" (or some such). Too bad the Primarch didn't seem to follow that tenent, since even after the daemon's/Horus' treachery is revealed, he's not at all remorseful and just a few hundred years later (battle of the fang), the Wolves are still foaming at the mouth to get at the Thousand Sons (although Battle did a good job at showing how much the Thousand Sons had degraded in such a short time, particularly with their best and brightest exiled with Ahriman).

Skits wrote:I actually quite enjoyed the fact that Ahriman wasn't written as an overpowered "I can do EVERYTHING AHAHAHA" character, like one or two of the other Sons characters in other books *cough Outcast Dead cough*. To me, that made him a more believable character, instead of just being nothing but a vessel for lolhaxpowers. Besides, power isn't just measured by how many people you can kill with your mind.

I agree here a lot. Ahriman, at the time of the novel Thousands was no where near the peak of his power that he is at now in the 40k universe. He was still second fiddle to Magnus himself and hasn't come into his own yet. We see the hints of the future Ahriman and it isn't until he gives himself over fully to the powers of chaos and casts the spell of all spells, meant to stregnthen the Thousand Sons that he really becomes the being present in 40k now.

One aspect of the Horus Heresy novels I have really liked is how it is clear that the legions deciding to go over to chaos were not a unanimous vote. I like the fact that someone members of the Sons of Horus and other traitor legions tried to stop it from happening from the inside. I also like that some of the characters that *do* go along with things also still have regrets along the way to make them more "human". Instead of 100% "KAOS ROXX" all the time.

The first GW game I played very regularly was adepticus titanticus and the heresy played a big part in that game. I am glad to finally see so much depth and attention being added to the story after all these years. Played Rogue Trader and WFB before then, but AT was the first time we really dedicated ourselves to the story and playing campaigns consistently each month.

Skriker

Omegus wrote:Honestly, him making even a stupid attempt to communicate was out of character for the personality established in previous novels. Russ was always picking fights with his brothers, and had a particular hard-on for hating on Magnus. The Wolves weren't going to raze Prospero because all other options had been exhausted, they were dying to get in that scrap. Magnus shouldn't have given into his merciful nature, and just annihilated the whole Legion when given the opportunity. As it was, the Wolves' contribution to the resolution of the Heresy was negligible.

Come on man, their contribution wasn't negligible.

I mean, if it weren't for them, Horus's forces wouldn't have a legion of extremely powerful sorcerers with a pissed off cyclops burning down Terra's fortifications with Warpfire.

Personally, though, I think of Leman Russ's half-assed attempt to plead with Magnus (Or rather, himself, since Magnus couldn't fething hear him) was just him trying to justify his gak to himself. Leman Russ is an ass, but I don't think he's quite the sociopath Lion El'Jonson is, and to some extent feels not that great about trying to kill his own brother. That said, the attack was still fuelled by the ignorance and prejudice of the Space Wolves, IMO.

As for repetition in the novel, the Wolves did have their saying of "I recognize my error, and will strive to correct it" (or some such). Too bad the Primarch didn't seem to follow that tenent, since even after the daemon's/Horus' treachery is revealed, he's not at all remorseful and just a few hundred years later (battle of the fang), the Wolves are still foaming at the mouth to get at the Thousand Sons (although Battle did a good job at showing how much the Thousand Sons had degraded in such a short time, particularly with their best and brightest exiled with Ahriman).

That is part of what I am talking about. The "justification" the protagonist whose name I forget was hilariously bad.

"Well uh, turns out the Thousand Sons weren't traitors, and we jumped the gun, and our whole legion was manipulated by a Daemon... But like, dude, listen, did you see how they were evilly defending their home from an invading force!? I mean, they shot fething lightning out of their hands, real talk, this gak was justified, yo."

Well, there is the whole Emperors comment of "Woe betide he who ignored my warning or breaks faith with me. He shall be my enemy, and I will visit such destruction upon him and all his followers that, until the end of all things, he shall rue the day he turned from my light" which provides some justification...

Just Dave wrote:Well, there is the whole Emperors comment of "Woe betide he who ignored my warning or breaks faith with me. He shall be my enemy, and I will visit such destruction upon him and all his followers that, until the end of all things, he shall rue the day he turned from my light" which provides some justification...

Though in Deliverance Lost you have Malcador, Dorn, and Corax talking and

daveNYC wrote:

Just Dave wrote:Well, there is the whole Emperors comment of "Woe betide he who ignored my warning or breaks faith with me. He shall be my enemy, and I will visit such destruction upon him and all his followers that, until the end of all things, he shall rue the day he turned from my light" which provides some justification...

Though in Deliverance Lost you have Malcador, Dorn, and Corax talking and

Spoiler:

the upshot of their conversation is that Russ had been sent to bring Magnus back in chains, and had seriously overstepped himself. They're also rather less than happy that Russ managed to hit the sweet spot of pissing off the Sons, but not actually being able to eliminate them.

There were hints in other works that the message to Russ to bring Magnus before the Emperor was intercepted and corrupted by Horus which lead to Russ going beyond where he was supposed to go and bringing the Thousand Sons fully into the traitor fold. That was not touched on at all in Prospero Burns.

Skriker

Void__Dragon wrote:

Omegus wrote:Honestly, him making even a stupid attempt to communicate was out of character for the personality established in previous novels. Russ was always picking fights with his brothers, and had a particular hard-on for hating on Magnus. The Wolves weren't going to raze Prospero because all other options had been exhausted, they were dying to get in that scrap. Magnus shouldn't have given into his merciful nature, and just annihilated the whole Legion when given the opportunity. As it was, the Wolves' contribution to the resolution of the Heresy was negligible.

Come on man, their contribution wasn't negligible.

I mean, if it weren't for them, Horus's forces wouldn't have a legion of extremely powerful sorcerers with a pissed off cyclops burning down Terra's fortifications with Warpfire.

Personally, though, I think of Leman Russ's half-assed attempt to plead with Magnus (Or rather, himself, since Magnus couldn't fething hear him) was just him trying to justify his gak to himself. Leman Russ is an ass, but I don't think he's quite the sociopath Lion El'Jonson is, and to some extent feels not that great about trying to kill his own brother. That said, the attack was still fuelled by the ignorance and prejudice of the Space Wolves, IMO.

Magnus only sided with Horus because of the actions of Russ. I bet Magnus was a bit pissed when he found out that it was Horus who told Russ to kick his ass good and proper. Russ handled the whole situation badly, he even had the warning from that Rune Priest Eada who went all warpy and he still chose to exterminate the Thousand Sons. He isn't much of a thinker. Lets look





One of the other Primarchs might have thought, hmm, so I have one of my guys warn me of the betrayal of Horus, then Magnus warns us, if in a naughty way,. But Horus says 'No wai am I bad, Magnus is bad'! You might veer on the edge of caution. But not Russ. Russ never had liked Magnus and was looking at any excuse to give him a whuppin'.

Skriker wrote:
There were hints in other works that the message to Russ to bring Magnus before the Emperor was intercepted and corrupted by Horus which lead to Russ going beyond where he was supposed to go and bringing the Thousand Sons fully into the traitor fold. That was not touched on at all in Prospero Burns.

Skriker

Here's a couple of quotes about the actual message





I guess it was left out of Prospero Burns as it wouldn't have fit in with the story. But to leave it out seems sloppy, it clearly happened, same as the whole time continuity thing in TOD.

Pilau Rice wrote:
One of the other Primarchs might have thought, hmm, so I have one of my guys warn me of the betrayal of Horus, then Magnus warns us, if in a naughty way,.

Magnus never warned anyone about Horus.

And the whole continuity is out of whack. Some of the books put Magnus' rebellion before Istavan 3, some after.

DarknessEternal wrote:Magnus never warned anyone about Horus.

Yes he did.

Prospero Burns states it.

So does A Thousand Sons.

Stop misreading the line where Magnus and the Emperor's meeting is gone over.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:
One of the other Primarchs might have thought, hmm, so I have one of my guys warn me of the betrayal of Horus, then Magnus warns us, if in a naughty way,.

Magnus never warned anyone about Horus.

And the whole continuity is out of whack. Some of the books put Magnus' rebellion before Istavan 3, some after.

Rebellion? If you mean the poorly thought out message to Terra, that's not exactly the word I'd use.

Skits wrote:Not to mention... how did Russ know that Magnus was "sealed in his tower being all emo and not talking to anyone"? Can Russ see through time and space? Not that I know of. So he had no reason to not try some more mundane method of communication.

It's been awhile since I read this, but I never got the feeling that the Wolves skipped over all the usual communications channels. The whole theme of the book was that the Wolves were not stupid, but were actually more clever than they appeared, and in general behaved like any other Astartes and not savages. This passage seemed pretty clearly to me to be a last-ditch effort at contacting Magnus, through a guy they were pretty close to certain was a psychic spy. Russ seemed to be genuinely trying to avoid having to attack the Sons. Difference is, Russ doesn't feel remorse or doubt. Once he committed to the attack, he was committed all the way.

daveNYC wrote:

Just Dave wrote:Well, there is the whole Emperors comment of "Woe betide he who ignored my warning or breaks faith with me. He shall be my enemy, and I will visit such destruction upon him and all his followers that, until the end of all things, he shall rue the day he turned from my light" which provides some justification...

Though in Deliverance Lost you have Malcador, Dorn, and Corax talking and

Spoiler:

the upshot of their conversation is that Russ had been sent to bring Magnus back in chains, and had seriously overstepped himself. They're also rather less than happy that Russ managed to hit the sweet spot of pissing off the Sons, but not actually being able to eliminate them.

Apart from Russ being stated as influenced or misled by both Horus and Valdor, at least.

Quite. My take is that despite the Emperor's sturm and drang over the use of psyker powers, his goal was to get Magnus back to Terra in order to salvage the situation with the throne and web gate. For obvious reasons, Horus suggested that nuking the entire site from orbit was the only way to be sure, and Russ fell for it hook, line and sinker.

Now why Valdor was so interested in destroying Team Magnus should be a very interesting read. Unless it's not covered in any of the books, at which point I'll fly to England and punch the entire BL staff in the junk.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:
One of the other Primarchs might have thought, hmm, so I have one of my guys warn me of the betrayal of Horus, then Magnus warns us, if in a naughty way,.

Magnus never warned anyone about Horus.

And the whole continuity is out of whack. Some of the books put Magnus' rebellion before Istavan 3, some after.

Didn't I provide quotes to say that he did

daveNYC wrote:Now why Valdor was so interested in destroying Team Magnus should be a very interesting read. Unless it's not covered in any of the books, at which point I'll fly to England and punch the entire BL staff in the junk.

I would have to assume that it is because Magnus is one of the more "disobedient" Primarchs, or rather, that he did not conform to the standard others like Dorn or Leman Russ did. Aka, he was not a tool (I mean that in a literal sense, as they obeyed the Emperor's every word without so much as questioning it, Russ in particular is well-known for this). Magnus's scholarly nature, and his habit of often attempting to bring worlds into compliance diplomatically, probably bugged Valdor. The Custodians in The First Heretic disliked Lorgar for similar reasons.

I'll begin by saying I agree, it is reptitive and just odd sounding, but YouTube a leopard growling, imagine it a little more throaty and that's the sound he's going for. It does sound right IMO, it's just an odd description. Annette's wolves dominate those of William Kings though. Vlka Fenryka owns Space Wolves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Abnett, not Annette, fething autocorrect

Void__Dragon wrote:

daveNYC wrote:Now why Valdor was so interested in destroying Team Magnus should be a very interesting read. Unless it's not covered in any of the books, at which point I'll fly to England and punch the entire BL staff in the junk.

I would have to assume that it is because Magnus is one of the more "disobedient" Primarchs, or rather, that he did not conform to the standard others like Dorn or Leman Russ did. Aka, he was not a tool (I mean that in a literal sense, as they obeyed the Emperor's every word without so much as questioning it, Russ in particular is well-known for this). Magnus's scholarly nature, and his habit of often attempting to bring worlds into compliance diplomatically, probably bugged Valdor. The Custodians in The First Heretic disliked Lorgar for similar reasons.

Magnus was also one of the closest to the Emperor, after all their warp swimming together. I guess this could be why the Emperor was so pissed at him.

The Custodians didn't like Lorgar because he was a wuss that didn't like war when he was supposed to be a General kicking ass in the name of their non God Emperor

vitki wrote:Now I need to find out if leopards sound different when wet or coated with some other substance.

I suppose the phrase wet leopard growl rolls a bit more than the growl of a lepard that has been dipped in peanut butter and rolled in toasted almonds and then coated in dark chocolate.

Great. Thanks to you and Mr Abnett, I'm no longer allowed back to the zoo. Stupid restraining order. On the plus side, my leg is healing quite well. I just wish they'd been able to get my arm out of the leopard's stomach in time.

Pilau Rice wrote:Magnus was also one of the closest to the Emperor, after all their warp swimming together. I guess this could be why the Emperor was so pissed at him.

The Custodians didn't like Lorgar because he was a wuss that didn't like war when he was supposed to be a General kicking ass in the name of their non God Emperor

Mmm, that's true, and is part of the reason Magnus was so angry with the Emperor for his censure of his practices. It is also entirely possible that Valdor just has a hatred for sorcerers, like Mortarion.

True, even though Magnus was a scholar and world-builder, he was a soldier first, he said as much to Lorgar in Colchis during the events of The First Heretic.

Void__Dragon wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:Magnus was also one of the closest to the Emperor, after all their warp swimming together. I guess this could be why the Emperor was so pissed at him.

The Custodians didn't like Lorgar because he was a wuss that didn't like war when he was supposed to be a General kicking ass in the name of their non God Emperor

Mmm, that's true, and is part of the reason Magnus was so angry with the Emperor for his censure of his practices. It is also entirely possible that Valdor just has a hatred for sorcerers, like Mortarion.

True, even though Magnus was a scholar and world-builder, he was a soldier first, he said as much to Lorgar in Colchis during the events of The First Heretic.

With the Custodians, whatever the Emperor says, goes. If you don't follow what he says to the letter, then your name is mud. This could be why Valdor was so insistent to Russ to execute Magnus, rather than to drag him back to Terra. Horus was the voice of the Emperor, I guess it would also explain the difference between Horus and Valdors words. Horus's were of deception, Valdor's were of persuasion.

Reading the quote again though i'm not sure actually ... Your point of hating sorcerers would make more sense, but has their been a hint of this before?

Pilau Rice wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:Magnus was also one of the closest to the Emperor, after all their warp swimming together. I guess this could be why the Emperor was so pissed at him.

The Custodians didn't like Lorgar because he was a wuss that didn't like war when he was supposed to be a General kicking ass in the name of their non God Emperor

Mmm, that's true, and is part of the reason Magnus was so angry with the Emperor for his censure of his practices. It is also entirely possible that Valdor just has a hatred for sorcerers, like Mortarion.

True, even though Magnus was a scholar and world-builder, he was a soldier first, he said as much to Lorgar in Colchis during the events of The First Heretic.

With the Custodians, whatever the Emperor says, goes. If you don't follow what he says to the letter, then your name is mud. This could be why Valdor was so insistent to Russ to execute Magnus, rather than to drag him back to Terra. Horus was the voice of the Emperor, I guess it would also explain the difference between Horus and Valdors words. Horus's were of deception, Valdor's were of persuasion.

Reading the quote again though i'm not sure actually ... Your point of hating sorcerers would make more sense, but has their been a hint of this before?

Only problem there is that I don't see how you square the Custodians believing that the word of the Emperor is law, and then subverting his wishes by convincing Russ to kill instead of capture Magnus.

daveNYC wrote:

Only problem there is that I don't see how you square the Custodians believing that the word of the Emperor is law, and then subverting his wishes by convincing Russ to kill instead of capture Magnus.

They currently have no reason to suspect Horus at the moment, despite of the warnings, dumb I know, and Horus acts as the Emperors Warmaster, who basically says, it's a waste of time taking Magnus back to Terra, kick his ass.

Pilau Rice wrote:With the Custodians, whatever the Emperor says, goes. If you don't follow what he says to the letter, then your name is mud. This could be why Valdor was so insistent to Russ to execute Magnus, rather than to drag him back to Terra. Horus was the voice of the Emperor, I guess it would also explain the difference between Horus and Valdors words. Horus's were of deception, Valdor's were of persuasion.

Reading the quote again though i'm not sure actually ... Your point of hating sorcerers would make more sense, but has their been a hint of this before?

That is sort of what I am saying, Magnus was not as prone to doing whatever the Emperor said with no argument. This relies on Valdor, along with Russ, being so incredibly stupid though. "Gee the Emperor told me to do this specific thing, then Horus told me to do something completely different. Who should I believe?"

I think that something along these lines is said about Valdor in Horus Heresy: Collected Visions, but I am not sure.

if i never hear the phrase "wet leopard growl" again it will be too soon. there are lots of growling animals out there. mix it up!

I'm slogging through it, but so far the read is not enjoyable at all. That probably has something to do with the fact that I'm 70 pages in and still have no idea what the hell is going on. I'm not a fan of that kind of writing style. Abnett did the same thing in Salvation's Reach- not explaining what the hell they were actually doing at the station until like 50 pages before the book ended. A very unappealing writing mechanic, imo.

I think PB proved that the Wolves are barbaric tools.

Magnus got a raw deal. Actually so far, Russ's greatest contribution to the Heresy is giving Horus another ally.