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Ahtman wrote:

biccat wrote:You know what the Congressional Budget Office is, right?

The chart and study come from the CBO, but they didn't make the point that 'government employees are overcompensated', that little editorial came from elsewhere.

And we have a winner.

Indeed, the actual study write up basically goes on for 28 pages about why federal employees tend to earn more, and does not take a normative position of any sort.

biccat wrote:

They chose private sector jobs that resemble public sector jobs, and ignored all the ones that don't.

WTF?

How many social security offices exist in the private sector?

biccat wrote:
Of course it does. Labor is a commodity.

If you're a Marxist.

Well, or a Marxian, but I doubt you're either.

All I'm taking from these charts is that as a person with a professional degree, I'm the only federal employee not getting overpaid!

Polonius wrote:All I'm taking from these charts is that as a person with a professional degree, I'm the only federal employee not getting overpaid!

No joke, the only advantage to working in government after a certain point in your education is job security.

dogma wrote:

Polonius wrote:All I'm taking from these charts is that as a person with a professional degree, I'm the only federal employee not getting overpaid!

No joke, the only advantage to working in government after a certain point in your education is job security.

Or, well, being the first legal job I was offered.

Ok, it was the first job of any sort I could find after law school. Freaking Target laid me off!

Polonius wrote:
Or, well, being the first legal job I was offered.

There is that.

Polonius wrote:
Ok, it was the first job of any sort I could find after law school. Freaking Target laid me off!

You became overqualified.

Had it been Walmart, you would have been overqualified by being able to spell your name, and not being 85.

dogma wrote:

Polonius wrote:
Ok, it was the first job of any sort I could find after law school. Freaking Target laid me off!

You became overqualified.

Had it been Walmart, you would have been overqualified by being able to spell your name, and not being 85.

I can hardly imagine a Target laying anyone off, unless they started shopping at Walmart....

Lol, I was hired for seasonal work (holidays) and got the ax on the new year.

On topic, I don't think it's shocking that Federal Employees are overpaid. With fixed pay scales, little ability to terminate employees, and low turnover, it's a pretty inevitable result.

Congress, at one point, was considering a 10% pay cut to all federal employees. I doubt that would cause very many workers to seek other work, although the same could be said in nearly any organization.

The flip side is that unlike in nearly any other professional job, most Federal workers don't really become more marketable. I'm considering a career in the Feds not just because it's stable work, but because my skills are virtually useless outside of the Federal Government.

Polonius wrote:
The flip side is that unlike in nearly any other professional job, most Federal workers don't really become more marketable. I'm considering a career in the Feds not just because it's stable work, but because my skills are virtually useless outside of the Federal Government.

What other skills could you market to the private sector?

dogma wrote:No joke, the only advantage to working in government after a certain point in your education is job security.

And, increasingly, the benefits package. Those who are aging or have a costly disability, for example, are probably actively searching for the broadest healthcare coverage possible as general perception is that healthcare costs will only go up.

WarOne wrote:

Polonius wrote:
The flip side is that unlike in nearly any other professional job, most Federal workers don't really become more marketable. I'm considering a career in the Feds not just because it's stable work, but because my skills are virtually useless outside of the Federal Government.

What other skills could you market to the private sector?

I'm not sure I understand the question. Sure, I've got some inherent skills that are of use, it's just that the job specific skills for what I do (draft decisions in accordance in internal regulations in a style unique to the agency) are really only useful to the agency.

Polonius wrote:

WarOne wrote:

Polonius wrote:
The flip side is that unlike in nearly any other professional job, most Federal workers don't really become more marketable. I'm considering a career in the Feds not just because it's stable work, but because my skills are virtually useless outside of the Federal Government.

What other skills could you market to the private sector?

I'm not sure I understand the question. Sure, I've got some inherent skills that are of use, it's just that the job specific skills for what I do (draft decisions in accordance in internal regulations in a style unique to the agency) are really only useful to the agency.

Rephrasing; if you had to find a nongovernmental job, what would you be able to list as skills for getting a private sector job?

Good to see the Congressional Budget Office continuing to produce good analysis. Sad to see their interesting work hijacked by the same old pundits repeating the same old silliness.

biccat wrote:If, presumably, one did not know much about economics.

You really, really need to begin to appreciate that you know very little about economics yourself. As long as you continue to believe your economic knowledge is sufficient, you will continue to believe things that make no sense.

There is a fundamental difference between public and private employment. Pay rates, like every other commodity, are based on supply and demand, and so the private enterprise will tend to accurately reflect the actual price of labor. Government employment is not based on market supply and demand, but rather on political supply and demand: people demand it, the government supplies it.

Are you prepared to discuss what the "proper" pay rate is for employee X?

As I've explained to you many, many times now, there is simply no way to determine the 'proper' pay rate for any employee, private or public.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Polonius wrote:On topic, I don't think it's shocking that Federal Employees are overpaid. With fixed pay scales, little ability to terminate employees, and low turnover, it's a pretty inevitable result.

There's pretty solid job security and fixed pay scales in most governments around the world, but wages are lower for government jobs in comparison to the private sector (outside of the most basic jobs, where the pay tends to be slightly less terrible).

I think a large part of the answer might come from what the government pay is comparing to. The US has really whacky rates of pay in the private sector, with distribution of income that leans very heavily to the right. The result is that while a moderately qualified person in a government job might earn more or less the same in the US and any other developed country, they're being compared to wildly different private sector pay structures.

I do have to wonder if by "government job" they are including the military as well?

I mean, by any standard, we soldiers with only a HS diploma make more and have more benefits than the average HS diploma holding person does in working at the proverbial "McDonalds" type jobs.

Would the scale in the OP look different if military was removed (or added if it was not included originally)?

What private sector job would be comparable with being a soldier?

Ensis Ferrae wrote:I do have to wonder if by "government job" they are including the military as well?

They aren't, its just civilians, though it does include the DoD and intelligence agencies, which are both highly specialized and, short of working at RAND, pretty much the pinnacle of achievement for people in that industry.


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Kilkrazy wrote:What private sector job would be comparable with being a soldier?

PMCs.

Kilkrazy wrote:What private sector job would be comparable with being a soldier?

If you break it down to MOS, we compare quite rigorously with many civilian jobs

Cooks, truck drivers, fuelers (for those places in the US who cannot pump their own gas), medics, MPs, etc... about the only thing we dont compare with is in the infantry, armor, cavalry scouts, and artillerymen (though some of the more computerized artillery jobs could count)

Actually the problem is that private employees are undercompensated, as the market has not advanced wages enough compared to inflation.

WarOne wrote:Rephrasing; if you had to find a nongovernmental job, what would you be able to list as skills for getting a private sector job?

Hmm...

Reviewing medical records for relevant findings and opinions
Legal Analysis and drafting

umm...

I think that's about it.

I guess I have a pretty comprehensive understanding of SSA Disability administrative law...

Melissia wrote:Actually the problem is that private employees are undercompensated, as the market has not advanced wages enough compared to inflation.

That's two different metrics. Over/undercompensation is relative to competition for compensation, not buying power/cost of goods.

Inflation is still relatively low such that food+fuel costs remain within the usual range for Americans which is 10%-15% of median income.

Home prices deflated considerably, and are eminently more affordable now than during the bubble years, although renting prices are more robust relatively.

Polonius wrote:I guess I have a pretty comprehensive understanding of SSA Disability administrative law...

You can, not surprisingly, get a really good job doing SSA Disability administrative law.

biccat wrote:

Polonius wrote:I guess I have a pretty comprehensive understanding of SSA Disability administrative law...

You can, not surprisingly, get a really good job doing SSA Disability administrative law.

I pretty much have the best possible job in that field, at least for my experience level. Being a claimant's rep pays less. And even they are essentially contract employees of the agency.

Ensis Ferrae wrote:...(for those places in the US who cannot pump their own gas)...

These still exist?

dogma wrote:

Ensis Ferrae wrote:...(for those places in the US who cannot pump their own gas)...

These still exist?

New Jersey, IIRC.

Maybe Oregon.

biccat wrote:

dogma wrote:

Ensis Ferrae wrote:...(for those places in the US who cannot pump their own gas)...

These still exist?

New Jersey, IIRC.

Maybe Oregon.

Yep, I'm from Oregon, and we STILL cannot pump our own gas (at least in populated areas, there's a couple truck stops Ive been to that I had to do it myself)

biccat wrote:

dogma wrote:

Ensis Ferrae wrote:...(for those places in the US who cannot pump their own gas)...

These still exist?

New Jersey, IIRC.

Maybe Oregon.

You can find them RARELY in Oklahoma.
I thought there wasn't any self service in NJ?

dogma wrote:

Ensis Ferrae wrote:...(for those places in the US who cannot pump their own gas)...

These still exist?

I ran into one of them the other night. It was a cash only gas station and they had two full service pumps. It may not be there now, but I knew of another small gas station (and auto repair) that was not only full service but you could get an account and just settle up at the end of the month, but that was 10 years ago.

Ensis Ferrae wrote:
Yep, I'm from Oregon, and we STILL cannot pump our own gas (at least in populated areas, there's a couple truck stops Ive been to that I had to do it myself)

After a little research, you can apparently pump your own gas into a motorcycle, but basically nothing else.


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Ahtman wrote:
I ran into one of them the other night. It was a cash only gas station and they had two full service pumps.

Its a sign of the time that "full service pumps" reminds me more of a massage parlor than a gas station.

dogma wrote:

Ensis Ferrae wrote:
Yep, I'm from Oregon, and we STILL cannot pump our own gas (at least in populated areas, there's a couple truck stops Ive been to that I had to do it myself)

After a little research, you can apparently pump your own gas into a motorcycle, but basically nothing else.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ahtman wrote:
I ran into one of them the other night. It was a cash only gas station and they had two full service pumps.

Its a sign of the time that "full service pumps" reminds me more of a massage parlor than a gas station.

And self service is an average night....

sourclams wrote:That's two different metrics. Over/undercompensation is relative to competition for compensation, not buying power/cost of goods.

It's also relative to pay levels in similarly developed countries. Thing is, your average unskilled and semi-skilled worker gets paid a whole lot less in the US than he does elsewhere in the world, while highly skilled workers get paid a whole lot more than they do elsewhere.

Kilkrazy wrote:What private sector job would be comparable with being a soldier?

Mall Cops.