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Wow if they have this many people, why haven't they steamroll all the other factions already?

VampireDeLaVega wrote:Wow if they have this many people, why haven't they steamroll all the other factions already?

Because the Orks outnumber them, they can't catch the Eldar, the number of Daemons is effectively unlimited, the Tau are highly concentrated, and only a tiny, tiny fraction of that power can be brought to bear in any given place.

Chaos is an ever-present force which constantly erupts in its own population. The Imperium can no more destroy Chaos than a man can destroy his own shadow. The Traitor Legions, specifically, are lodged in horrific realms of un-being, where insanity is as much a physical law as gravity; trying to invade would be sending presents to the Dark Gods in manpower and materiel.

The Eldar are precognizant, so they're almost impossible to nail down. Trying to track them down is like trying to capture mist, and trying to destroy a craftworld would be a massive investiture of resources that would be better spent defending the Imperium from one of the more... genocidal factions.

The Dark Eldar are just as hard to nail down as the Eldar, and they have a horrible not-place of their own to retreat to where the Imperium can't follow.

The Tyranids are numerous, even by Imperial standards, and implacable. When a Hive Fleet attacks a planet, there's likely nothing left but bare rock before reinforcements can arrive, and the fleet has moved on.

The Orks outnumber humanity. Significantly. The only reason the Orks haven't overrun the galaxy is that they're just as happy to fight each other as they are to fight anyone (and everyone) else.

The Necrons are almost impossible to kill, can teleport around at their whim, and if you can find their home planets, they're guarded by all sorts of freaky insane technology. There's at least one example of a Necron machine the size of a planet.

The Tau are on a big list of 'xenos empires to wipe out when we have nothing better to do with our time.' They are beneath the notice of the Imperium as a whole.

The population of the Imperium is huge, but again, it isn't particularly well-organized. The sheer fact of its size, and the unreliability of communication and transportation, means it functions as countless smaller organizations, all operating more or less independently of one another, frequently at cross-purposes. It's constantly under threat, from multiple directions, and organizing enough of its resources for aggressive expansion is an unfathomably complex undertaking. The spread of the galaxy isn't like a land war, where the Imperium has control of everything inside its borders; instead, you have planetary systems connected in a weave of obligation, and you have any number of traitor and alien empires operating in the spaces in between.

Durza wrote:
A census would be possible for a single non-hive planet, but by the time it reached wherever they're collecting the figures it would be long out of date.

Firstly, the majority of the population is going to be on hive worlds. Just like in the real world, most humans live in cities, even though the vast majority of 'inhabited' land is not in cities. Areas with 1 person per square mile just can't compete with areas with 1000 people per square foot. So by leaving out hive worlds your census is already a total guesstimate.

Secondly, only certain types of planets would really enable a census to be taken. Feral worlds, techno-barbarian worlds, death worlds, and any number of other types of worlds would be impossible to take a census of.

There are far more planets that do not allow a census to be taken than those that do.

And then you have problems with time dilation. Of of the major reasons the Imperium has to be so decentralized is that, even leaving out warp travel, time is not a constant over a galactic spanning empire. Throw warp travel into it and you can really only govern and reliably communicate over a limited area. Even if they did get a totally 'accurate' population count, it would be meaningless from a managerial perspective. Weird, but true.

Grey Templar wrote:up, they are just able to say with confidance that they have around 1 million worlds, and that number is constantly being added to and subtracted from.

That is another one of those 'poetic' lines, true in essence, but not in specific. The Imperium really doesn't know how many worlds they have. It's difficult even to decide what should qualify as a world of the Imperium. What about an asteroid installation with the population of a hive world? If you have a hive moon over an ag world, is that two worlds, or does the moon not count? What about worlds that haven't heard from the Imperium in 500 years and 'rebelled' long ago, but the Imperium never found out? What about frontier worlds the Imperium doesn't know about, but still worship the Emperor and think they are part of the Empire?

In this case the phrase '1 million worlds' should be taking to mean 'a whole friggin lot, too many to really count'.

The Imperium is decentralized and non-invasive in local government for a reason: because it is impossible to govern an empire that size in the classical sense. At best they can set broad policies and let them trickle down.

VampireDeLaVega wrote:Wow if they have this many people, why haven't they steamroll all the other factions already?

As has been mentioned, the Tau are the only faction the Imperium could actually a) attack and b) overpower. And they just aren't enough of a threat right now to divert resources from the other impending threats.

Well, atleast we can all agree on one thing, of all the STCs' found, the one with the plans on how to make a condom was NOT one of them

o no?

BeRzErKeR wrote:

VampireDeLaVega wrote:Wow if they have this many people, why haven't they steamroll all the other factions already?

Because the Orks outnumber them, they can't catch the Eldar, the number of Daemons is effectively unlimited, the Tau are highly concentrated, and only a tiny, tiny fraction of that power can be brought to bear in any given place.

This, the fact is that entire Imperial Guard holds less then 1% of the entire population.

Grey Templar wrote:o no?

LMAO. That pic made my day, Thanks!

Ratius wrote:

Iracundus wrote:Actually we do have some data that allows for estimation.

The Hive Worlds of the Imperium are classed as having upper limit population of 500 billion (3rd edition 40K rulebook, p. 114). The 5th edition rulebook on p. 115 estimates there to be 3.238 * 10^4 or 32,380 hive worlds in the Imperium. If all 1,000,000 worlds of the Imperium were hive worlds with 500 billion people that is 5 * 10^17. That is an UPPER limit for the Imperium's population because we know that not all worlds are maximum population hive worlds.

Minea from that page in the 5th edition rulebook is described as a typical example of a hive world, and it has 154 billion population, well under the 500 billion maximum. Assume we are still generous and give all hive worlds a population of 250 billion to account for less populated worlds elsewhere in the Imperium. 32,380 hive worlds of 250 billion population each is 8.095 * 10^15.

That is more than "500 trillion" for the hive worlds alone.

Excellent piece of work.

Is the 5x10^17 equal to 50 million billion or 50 peta?

peta (corresponding to quadrillion) is 10^15. 5 * 10^17 as an upper limit is 5 million billion people, or 500 quadrillion people.

Durza wrote:

Joey wrote:A census would be entirely possible and in fact the Imperium would be pretty irresposable not to. How are you going to know how many divisons to demand from a planet if you don't know its population?
GW are, for once, too sensible to give an actual number.

A census would be possible for a single non-hive planet, but by the time it reached wherever they're collecting the figures it would be long out of date.

Not really. Just ask planets "btw how many people do you reckon you have?". Obviously it'd depend heavily on the efficiency of the local bureaucracy,but it'd be possible to get a rough estimate of population per sub-system, then adding them up.

Joey wrote:

Durza wrote:

Joey wrote:A census would be entirely possible and in fact the Imperium would be pretty irresposable not to. How are you going to know how many divisons to demand from a planet if you don't know its population?
GW are, for once, too sensible to give an actual number.

A census would be possible for a single non-hive planet, but by the time it reached wherever they're collecting the figures it would be long out of date.

Not really. Just ask planets "btw how many people do you reckon you have?". Obviously it'd depend heavily on the efficiency of the local bureaucracy,but it'd be possible to get a rough estimate of population per sub-system, then adding them up.

This is both true and not. Yes, they technically could do this, but there are many worlds where the governers literally have no idea. Hive worlds, death worlds, feudal worlds. Sure they could guess, but it would be so of as to render the census moot.

And then there is the communication issue. While short range communication is somewhat reliable, long range communication suffers greatly from warp dialation. A great number of requests may take decades to centuries to arrive, and the reports can take decades to centuries to arrive. Combine that with the administratums legendary inefficiency and slow response time (a side effect and necessity the said long response times, the danger of chaos influence, and the sheer size of the Imperium) and it could again take decades to centuries for processing each step of the way as well. Each step (generating the request, sending the request, receiving and processing the request, organizing the census, performing the census, generating the report, sending the report, processing the report) has a potential perfomance time ranging from hours to centuries, and many are just going to be lost in warp storms, wars, uprising, and beaurocracy.

Reports will be coming in for centuries, many will be totally inaccurate, and many will just disappear. By the time it is complete worlds, even whole sectors will have been lost, worlds will have been conquered, political coups and reforms will have happened within the government, and new crisis will have arisen.

Anyone who ordered a census would be long dead by the time it was complete, and crisis or reforms requiring it would be over, and the information received would be totally inaccurate and out of date. That is why a miscalculation in the part of the administratum can strip a planet bare before it gets corrected, that is why a dropped decimal point can cause entire sectors to be lost to the Imperium, and that is why the Imperium is not nearly as authoritarian, centeralized, and invasive in local politics as many like to think. They can't afford it. They let worlds do what they want, they organize military actions at the sector level, NOT the galactic level. That is why the actual government limits itself to just a few simple laws (worship the Emperor, pay the tithe, send in your psykers) and lets the various factions within its various organizations largely do as they will, governing themselves and waging internal wars so long as it does not interfere with the tithe.

And that is why they never bother with anything like a galactic census, again leaving such things to the local governments.

riplikash wrote:
Anyone who ordered a census would be long dead by the time it was complete, and crisis or reforms requiring it would be over, and the information received would be totally inaccurate and out of date. That is why a miscalculation in the part of the administratum can strip a planet bare before it gets corrected, that is why a dropped decimal point can cause entire sectors to be lost to the Imperium, and that is why the Imperium is not nearly as authoritarian, centeralized, and invasive in local politics as many like to think. They can't afford it. They let worlds do what they want, they organize military actions at the sector level, NOT the galactic level. That is why the actual government limits itself to just a few simple laws (worship the Emperor, pay the tithe, send in your psykers) and lets the various factions within its various organizations largely do as they will, governing themselves and waging internal wars so long as it does not interfere with the tithe.

Bingo. That is why for all their claims of authority and power, the High Lords' rule is actually fairly limited. As much as it is convenient to blame them for being corrupt, self-serving, betraying the Emperor's wishes, etc... the High Lords "reign" but don't really rule over the rest of the Imperium outside their immediate communication range.

Any decree by the High Lords is really more like a general motivational statement rather than concrete policy. Take for example their edict in response to the incursions of Hive Fleet Kraken (first desribed in Epic Hive War), which basically amounted to declaring xenocidal war on the Tyranids (as if the Imperium had any other official policy in place). Anything issued by a High Lord would have to filter down through the bureaucracy to individual sectors and then worlds. Assuming it had not already been out of date by the time an individual world received it, the world's response would still be left to the local governor, and so the implementation might be slow, ineffective, or never enacted at all. That is why even if by some sheer miracle a reform minded individual were to become a High Lord, their attempts would still be ultimately stymied by bureaucratic inertia and the simple time lag and spatial distances of travel and communication in the Imperium.

I don't see how census data would take centuries to be sent whereas "Help we're being attacked" seems to be transmitted pretty efficiently.
inb4 "well not always LOL".
Well they do. The Imperial Guard fight. They don't spend all their time dying of old age in transit.

Honestly the only thing the greater Imperium should even be remotely interested in, is whether a sector or subsector is contributing to the Imperium in some fashion or not. Here's a simple take on this.

Does Sector X Contribute to the Imperium: Y/N

Y: Check again later when Administratum gets around to it

N: Check if sector has anything worth contributing

If Y, discover source of disruption and apply excessive force until problem is solved or nothing is left.

If N, forget about it and go conquer some sectors

Joey wrote:I don't see how census data would take centuries to be sent whereas "Help we're being attacked" seems to be transmitted pretty efficiently.
inb4 "well not always LOL".
Well they do. The Imperial Guard fight. They don't spend all their time dying of old age in transit.

As described first in the 2nd edition IG Codex and then repeated in later sources, the call for help for a world first goes to its local neighbours in the sub-sector and that doesn't take too long. If they are not up to the task or the threat grows, then the call for help goes out to the rest of the sector, and then further still. In this decentralized response pattern, more of the Imperium is recruited to fight a threat without anyone on Terra having to actually direct from the top. Th

Joey wrote:I don't see how census data would take centuries to be sent whereas "Help we're being attacked" seems to be transmitted pretty efficiently.
inb4 "well not always LOL".
Well they do. The Imperial Guard fight. They don't spend all their time dying of old age in transit.

As I already pointed out, military actions are not organized at the galactic level, they are organized at the sub-sector, sector, and segmentum level. Actions at the Segmentum level of then take decades to organize, sometimes as long as a century.

The Imperial Guard itself doesn't really function as a cohesive organization, more as a group of allied worlds, e.g. less the US military and more Allied nations in WWII. Every regimen has its own recruitment practices, training practices, tactics and specializations, equipment, and officers (up to a certain level). They are tied together by a) high level officers (colonel and above) and b) commisars (who are trained and supplied by the Imperium proper to attempt to maintain some level of congruency between forces).

High level military actions are rarely the result of government or military decision. They usually are the result of an individual using their personal power, charisma, diplomacy, contacts, and favors to get enough resources behind them to launch a crusade. These leaders aren't even usually military men. Members of the Ecclesiarchy, Administratum, planetary govorners, and Rogue Traders have all been at the head of crusades at different times.

The Imperium is not an organized, cohesive government like in most fiction. They are a disparate group of planets united by a loose government, religion, and the need for survival. In the fluff the vast majority of actions are the result of diplomatic maneuvering between independent factions, not governmental organization and madate.

riplikash wrote:
The Imperium is not an organized, cohesive government like in most fiction. They are a disparate group of planets united by a loose government, religion, and the need for survival. In the fluff the vast majority of actions are the result of diplomatic maneuvering between independent factions, not governmental organization and madate.

The Imperium can be likened to a ship stuck on autopilot. It is structured in such a way that the actions of local organizations and factions cancel out more or less in the big scheme. It a structure that reacts against and resists change, attempting to restore the old status quo. The only individuals that were capable through sheer force of charisma or power to enact change on a wide scale, such as the Emperor, the Primarchs, or Sebastian Thor (and it is debateable how much fundamental change he really accomplished), are all dead or otherwise out of action.

In a way that is more frightening and depressing. Not an Imperium that is actively malevolent or oppressive due to the actions of a few conscious individuals, but that is so as the result of the sum total of the ignorance and bigotry of all of humanity. To use the ship analogy, the ship of state isn't being steered into the iceberg by an evil or mad person. It is going to crash into the iceberg because everyone is fighting to be the one to turn the steering wheel and fighting to prevent anyone else from doing so.

Iracundus wrote:
In a way that is more frightening and depressing. Not an Imperium that is actively malevolent or oppressive due to the actions of a few conscious individuals, but that is so as the result of the sum total of the ignorance and bigotry of all of humanity. To use the ship analogy, the ship of state isn't being steered into the iceberg by an evil or mad person. It is going to crash into the iceberg because everyone is fighting to be the one to turn the steering wheel and fighting to prevent anyone else from doing so.

A good thought. It isn't the the high lords are corrupt and evil, that the ad mech is, or the administratum. The Imperial government itself is very neutral, it doesn't enforce a hellish existence on its member worlds, or even encourage it. For the most part the worlds are monstrous because humanity is monstrous. It is less 1984 or Nazi Germany and more Lord of the Flies.

It's a very democratic message really. People don't need a scary evil empire to make their lives a living hell. If everyone works together they can make their own lives a living hell. By working together and sharing with our friends, neighbors, and community, we can all have a hopeless, dystopian future one small act at a time.

So teach by exmaple. Remember, if you don't share pain, corruption, and sheer mean spirited pettiness with your children, who will?

Eh.... sort of. We're given the image of a hellish existence on most worlds in the various fluff, but this is only because these worlds are the most interesting. The majority of Imperial worlds are exactly that: Imperial Worlds. They're pretty much like the modern world with the addition of a few spaceships that come and go at random times, though the vast majority of people will never get on one. They go to school, they work, they go to church, they raise families, they grow old, they die. The cycle continues.

The majority of people don't live in the Underhive or on Death Worlds or in the lowest reaches of a Forge World's foundries. They live, like most people, pretty simply, but without any real needs that aren't met. They're not wealthy, by any stretch, but neither are they desperately poor. In effect, it's like being Middle Class in the modern Western World.

Psienesis wrote:Eh.... sort of. We're given the image of a hellish existence on most worlds in the various fluff, but this is only because these worlds are the most interesting. The majority of Imperial worlds are exactly that: Imperial Worlds. They're pretty much like the modern world with the addition of a few spaceships that come and go at random times, though the vast majority of people will never get on one. They go to school, they work, they go to church, they raise families, they grow old, they die. The cycle continues.

The majority of people don't live in the Underhive or on Death Worlds or in the lowest reaches of a Forge World's foundries. They live, like most people, pretty simply, but without any real needs that aren't met. They're not wealthy, by any stretch, but neither are they desperately poor. In effect, it's like being Middle Class in the modern Western World.

Thank the Emperor that someone understands the system... just because border worlds are hellhole doesn't mean that inner worlds are hellholes to.

As far as 'census' goes the obvious question is twofold. First, does the Adminstratum just collect the data, or do they collect it and just store it away without attempting to compile or reference it when they do? The Administratum is known for being very pedantic about the collection of information, even to the most trivial or unimportant details. And they will collect it in the most excrutiating detail. But when it comes to piecing together the information, they'll suck at it. Information for information's sake (unless it is dangeorus in which caes they might just purge it and everything in its vicinity. Depending on your author.)

SEcondly, how accurate a census do they take? Given all the levels and red tape such has to percolate through there's plenty of room for a 'telephone' effect and for inaccuracy after inaccuracy to build up.


I would point out that the Imperial population is probably somewhere in the quadrillions unless large percentages of densely populated hive worlds or pseudo-hive worlds (really built up civilized worlds) are involved. IF the majority were feudal or feral (and they had low populations as outlined in say, 3rd edition rules) or even low population civilised (I think civvy worlds can get into the millions) the population numbers can go down. Of course its unlikely that the numbers given are at all precise (they're more order of magntidue estimates) so they can of course be higher (just because it says 500 billion doens't mean the population always stays at that number. It probably can go up or even go down depending on circumstances, although given most 'Necromunda' type hives I'd be betting on it going far above.)

quintillions is.. possible but you really have to break out of that 'million world' idea. You're getting more into the infrequent 'millions' or 'billions' estimates (like the billions of worlds in the FFg RPG, or the 'billions of hive worlds' mentioned in Heart of Rage.) But I doubt everyone would agree to that (in most cases it still is a 'million world' Imperium after all.. although if the population numbers, IG numbers, Space Marine numbers, etc aren't well known why should the territorial numbers be known precisely?)

Otherwise as noted you literally have to assume something like a million hive worlds only in the Imperium, and each in the trillions to get to quintillions.

Even a Feudal World (like Sepheris Secundus) can have a population of billions. If we wanted to set the number of populated worlds in the Imperium at a million, give or take, it doesn't really take that many Hive Worlds, comparatively, to reach a quadrillion people.

Keep in mind, though, that 40K is written by a bunch of people who really, really, really have no background in sociology or human population patterns. They make up a world and throw some numbers on it because it sounds cool, not because they understand exactly how a human population in that scenario would function.

Case in point, a Hive World, like the modern-day mega-cities, would double its population every couple of centuries (like the ones in India do, and have been doing), even taking into account the occasional epidemic. Humans are, if nothing else, a rather sturdy species, and prone to over-population. While the modern birth-to-death ratio is averaging out to 2.5:1 (variable by location, but this is a rough global average), it's not hard to imagine this being much higher in the Imperium, with 6:1 or 10:1 averages being the norm.

Psienesis wrote:Eh.... sort of. We're given the image of a hellish existence on most worlds in the various fluff, but this is only because these worlds are the most interesting. The majority of Imperial worlds are exactly that: Imperial Worlds. They're pretty much like the modern world with the addition of a few spaceships that come and go at random times, though the vast majority of people will never get on one. They go to school, they work, they go to church, they raise families, they grow old, they die. The cycle continues.

The majority of people don't live in the Underhive or on Death Worlds or in the lowest reaches of a Forge World's foundries. They live, like most people, pretty simply, but without any real needs that aren't met. They're not wealthy, by any stretch, but neither are they desperately poor. In effect, it's like being Middle Class in the modern Western World.

Yes, I know. It's a joke. The vast majority of my posts are about the decentralized and diverse nature of Imperial life.

Psienesis wrote:
Case in point, a Hive World, like the modern-day mega-cities, would double its population every couple of centuries (like the ones in India do, and have been doing), even taking into account the occasional epidemic. Humans are, if nothing else, a rather sturdy species, and prone to over-population. While the modern birth-to-death ratio is averaging out to 2.5:1 (variable by location, but this is a rough global average), it's not hard to imagine this being much higher in the Imperium, with 6:1 or 10:1 averages being the norm.

That is if food is available. Even taking into account massive recycling of all food sources including the dead, hive worlds are still dependent on shipments of food from elsewhere, as no system is 100% and hive worlds are not closed systems as there is stuff leaving: tithes and trade. Food may not always be available however especially in the Underhive, and infant mortality would probably be extremely high from poor nutrition, disease, toxins, and the dangerous environment.

The Imperial tithe on hive worlds is as much about taking troops as manufactured goods. Hive worlds in a sense are people production factories. In a sense, raising and sending troops offworld (often taken from the Underhive gangs) may be an important societal safety valve, by reducing the population of the more undesirable segments of hive society.

100 Trillion.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:100 Trillion.

As shown earlier, hive worlds alone have far more than 100 trillion which is 1 * 10^14.

The 5th edition rulebook on p. 115 estimates there to be 3.238 * 10^4 or 32,380 hive worlds in the Imperium and gives the example of Minea as a typical example of a hive world. Minea has 154 billion population, well under the 500 billion maximum upper limit given in the 3rd edition rulebook. Even if all hive worlds were like Minea and had 154 billion, 32,380 hive worlds of 154 billion population each is 4.98652 * 10^15, which is nearly 50 times more than your figure of 100 trillion.

If the upper limit is 500 billion for one planet why are you saying one can have 100 trillion?

I think he means the population of the hive worlds combined is in excess of 100 trillion, meaning 100 trilling gets easily past before you even take into account the other 98% of Imperial worlds.

BeRzErKeR wrote:I tried to calculate a rough estimate of the size of the Imperial Guard. I took the number of soldiers under arms at the close of WW2 in 1945 with the number under arms in 1990, a year in which there were no major wars.

1990? No major wars? Yeah, okay then, whatever you say.

Joey wrote:I don't see how census data would take centuries to be sent whereas "Help we're being attacked" seems to be transmitted pretty efficiently.
inb4 "well not always LOL".
Well they do. The Imperial Guard fight. They don't spend all their time dying of old age in transit.

Requests for aid are submitted to (and responded to from) the immediate vicinity in most cases. The troops are raised in an expanding area around the point of conflict. What you're asking for requires all of the information to be collected (which on Hive Worlds would take a ludicrously long time), collated, and then transmitted to one location where it has to be added and such. There's little chance that it could occur quick enough for it to be anyway near a rough estimate (although I'd imagine they do have at least a general idea of the population of various planets, especially the more important ones).