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so it is most likley in the benefit of humanity for space marines to have never existed and also for the sake of diversity there would be hundreds of human empires scattered across the galaxy and the gods of chaos would have much less power. so overall the 40k universe is better for everyone without the space marines, also given my opinion on tyranids they would not be much of a threat.

KillerSkivil wrote:so it is most likley in the benefit of humanity for space marines to have never existed and also for the sake of diversity there would be hundreds of human empires scattered across the galaxy and the gods of chaos would have much less power. so overall the 40k universe is better for everyone without the space marines, also given my opinion on tyranids they would not be much of a threat.

Why?

Humanity has a chance united, since the main issue ( warp storms ) cleared at the time the Emperor started his Crusade means those humans 'protected' from incoming threats would had to stand alone and the background doesn't support the idea of small enclaves surviving
on their own for millenia if they are no longer hidden.

Its either:

- an Emperor to guide them, creating "mariny" things to do his bidding as he knows he has to enter a different enviromnent than terran soil if his plans shall come to pass. Thus long term planning, unification of terra etc are bound to him. Without, the home-world would go down like so many planets which carry the remnants of civilzaition in form of empty ruins. The 40k verse has those civs that didn't stand the 'test of time' too.

- the ongoing civil wars ending badly, and terra depopulated. Maybe reduced to a lifeless husk...
The former colonies left out there alone. They are spread far and wide, just small blots of humanity in a dark galaxy.
Without a driving force, like the Emperor, and the long term plans possible for one who lives so long, humanity has no course and would be
as unimportant as most of the small empires are.

The "gods" of chaos, didn't need humanity to be "born", they don't need it to prosper and surely a replacement would be found.
It is also an all out war, eternally and it won't matter if there are more or less humans involved. The threat level isn't tied to a human empire.
Remember this part of the universe had wars aeons before humans existed and it may see them aeons after humanity perished.
Humans are the main actors of the setting we know, and marines the easy to link to Knights in space theme.
Take them away and you get a generic sci-fi verse that isn't 40k.

Without the SM it's likely that mankind wouldn't have lived to see the 41st millenium. As the IoM stands at the moment, they're barely, barely holding back destruction from all sides and from every type of foe. Take the massively enhanced, uber-doober, invincible supersoliders out of the equation and well . . . an Ork Whaa! here, a civil war there, sporadic Eldar raids and eventual awakening of Necrons and Nid incursions = bye bye puny 'oomans. Putting it simply, humans had to become superhuman in order to remain alive in the utterly grim future of the 41st millenium.

I don't think it would be 40k.

I mean SM's have basically become the posterboys for the hobby, I doubt there are many non players who would recognise 40k if it weren't for them.

Fluff wise. I don't think the great crusade would have been successful without them. I mean yeah you have the Sol system, but you've got lost empires across the galaxy with varying levels of tech and manpower. The Emp needed a trump card because human on human fighting can end up in stand stills. Course the heresy wouldn't have happened, but it would have anyways if there was a crusade. That much power in the hands of few that can be corrupted? Just asking for it.

Not saying marines can't be corrupted, just pointing out that if the crusade happened, the heresy would have undoubtfully happened

Well, there would be no Grey Knights.

Great White wrote:Well, there would be no Grey Knights.

well that's a given

The Giant Pauldron industry would collapse.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Yes, I said conquerored not colonized. There'd be no Imperium and these isolated human outposts would be picked off by aliens like the Tyranid.

So there would have never been any Imperium at all? I wouldn't agree with you there, If we have learnt anything about the Emperor he is a very capable and driven individual. If he still had a goal to form an Imperium then I am sure he would have found the means to do so.

Unlikely alliances might have been formed to further the spans of his Empire and for protection. It might not have lasted long due to all the gribblies out there, like you say KC. But there still might have been a candles flame flicker of an Imperium.

Great White wrote:Well, there would be no Grey Knights.

Maybe the Emperors children, not the astartes, would be the ultimate Daemon slayers? The Emperor would possibly be still up and walking, so no Star Child Theory. Maybe his quest is for his real kids to be found?

I understand what you guys are saying that without the Space Marines it wouldn't be 40k in more ways than one. Hey, I wouldn't like it as there would be no Spiky Marines I'm just trying to think, from a fluff perspective, what it would be like without them. Business perspective, I probably wouldn't be posting on dakkadakka now discussing this.

How's this for a start.

Terra United 1 Not the Emperor 0 - Terra is united by the forces of the Emperor.

The Boinking - After the destruction caused during the unification of Terra 100 years of repopulation and rebuilding is undertaken. Ready for the Emperors dream of Super Star DJ to be actioned.

Mars Bar - The Emperor, long knowing the existence of the Mechanicum after their trips to Terra approaches them. Realising that he is the Mechano an alliance is forged. The Emperor know has many Titans.

Hi Ho Hi Ho it's off to work we go - The Emperor colonises the rest of the Solar System.

D'oh - With the aid of Mechanicum the Emperor leads the first Expedtion fleet into the next System. After years of Scrabble and Monopoly contact with the first race is made. Unfortunately it's Greenskins and the Emperor advances in a different direction before getting smushed.

I mean WOO HOO - First contact with another human civilisation is made, their is much rejoicing. The human base is only a few planets but the reek of success fills the Emperors nostrils. Alliances are formed and the Emperor returns to Terra a happy bunny.

Excuse me Sir, but there's something Green in your solar system - The Orks that the Emperor had encountered had followed the initial trajectory of the fleet and headed for Terra. Upon entering the system the Orks are almost there and a Space Battle is fought. Luckily for the Emperor, his fleet is vastly superior and crushes the Orks.

You Must Construct Additional Pylons! - The Emperor, realising the threat of invading species enlists the assistance of the Mechanicum to form great defenses around Terra and the entire system. Huge Void shield Generators are activated around the entire system.

Lets go this way, no that way - Further expeditions are launched. Now some from Terra 2. Some are successful, others not so much. But with each success man power is increased and new human Worlds are bought to the bosom of the Emperor.

Are we there yet? - The Emperor is getting bored of Monopoly and even Mahjong. He returns to Terra to investigate new ways of travel. Space Bike, Space Catapult, what ever he can think of.

Frankenfurter - The Emperor discovers how to utilize the Warp. Realising serious business, he constructs the Golden Throne and Astronimicon, to protect and guide.

Ok tl;dr most probably but I had fun Last of all we fast forward many thousands of years.

Say Cheese - The Emperor realises the Tyranid threat is fastly approaching Terra.Using his mighty psychic strength and his constructions the uses his amplified power to penetrate the Hive Mind, destroying the Synapse link held over the countless organisms. Those that survive flee and splinter from the main fleet in all directions. The Hive Mind dissipates into nothingness, with no minds to hold dominion over. It has also cost the Imperium greatly as the direction of the awesome psychic attack causes the Astronicom to cease whilst the Emperors attention is elsewhere, countless vessels are lost in the warp.

No Crusade, no Heresy.

The Emperor would have unified the Sol System, but wouldn't be able to go much farther than that. Various other pockets of humanity like the Interex would continue to thrive. Tyranids would have never shown up, and Necrons would have probably never awoken.

So there wouldn't be an Imperium, but most humans in the universe would probably be better off.

Pilau Rice wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Yes, I said conquerored not colonized. There'd be no Imperium and these isolated human outposts would be picked off by aliens like the Tyranid.

So there would have never been any Imperium at all? I wouldn't agree with you there, If we have learnt anything about the Emperor he is a very capable and driven individual. If he still had a goal to form an Imperium then I am sure he would have found the means to do so.

Unlikely alliances might have been formed to further the spans of his Empire and for protection. It might not have lasted long due to all the gribblies out there, like you say KC. But there still might have been a candles flame flicker of an Imperium.

Great White wrote:Well, there would be no Grey Knights.

Maybe the Emperors children, not the astartes, would be the ultimate Daemon slayers? The Emperor would possibly be still up and walking, so no Star Child Theory. Maybe his quest is for his real kids to be found?

I understand what you guys are saying that without the Space Marines it wouldn't be 40k in more ways than one. Hey, I wouldn't like it as there would be no Spiky Marines I'm just trying to think, from a fluff perspective, what it would be like without them. Business perspective, I probably wouldn't be posting on dakkadakka now discussing this.

How's this for a start.

Terra United 1 Not the Emperor 0 - Terra is united by the forces of the Emperor.

The Boinking - After the destruction caused during the unification of Terra 100 years of repopulation and rebuilding is undertaken. Ready for the Emperors dream of Super Star DJ to be actioned.

Mars Bar - The Emperor, long knowing the existence of the Mechanicum after their trips to Terra approaches them. Realising that he is the Mechano an alliance is forged. The Emperor know has many Titans.

Hi Ho Hi Ho it's off to work we go - The Emperor colonises the rest of the Solar System.

D'oh - With the aid of Mechanicum the Emperor leads the first Expedtion fleet into the next System. After years of Scrabble and Monopoly contact with the first race is made. Unfortunately it's Greenskins and the Emperor advances in a different direction before getting smushed.

I mean WOO HOO - First contact with another human civilisation is made, their is much rejoicing. The human base is only a few planets but the reek of success fills the Emperors nostrils. Alliances are formed and the Emperor returns to Terra a happy bunny.

Excuse me Sir, but there's something Green in your solar system - The Orks that the Emperor had encountered had followed the initial trajectory of the fleet and headed for Terra. Upon entering the system the Orks are almost there and a Space Battle is fought. Luckily for the Emperor, his fleet is vastly superior and crushes the Orks.

You Must Construct Additional Pylons! - The Emperor, realising the threat of invading species enlists the assistance of the Mechanicum to form great defenses around Terra and the entire system. Huge Void shield Generators are activated around the entire system.

Lets go this way, no that way - Further expeditions are launched. Now some from Terra 2. Some are successful, others not so much. But with each success man power is increased and new human Worlds are bought to the bosom of the Emperor.

Are we there yet? - The Emperor is getting bored of Monopoly and even Mahjong. He returns to Terra to investigate new ways of travel. Space Bike, Space Catapult, what ever he can think of.

Frankenfurter - The Emperor discovers how to utilize the Warp. Realising serious business, he constructs the Golden Throne and Astronimicon, to protect and guide.

Ok tl;dr most probably but I had fun Last of all we fast forward many thousands of years.

Say Cheese - The Emperor realises the Tyranid threat is fastly approaching Terra.Using his mighty psychic strength and his constructions the uses his amplified power to penetrate the Hive Mind, destroying the Synapse link held over the countless organisms. Those that survive flee and splinter from the main fleet in all directions. The Hive Mind dissipates into nothingness, with no minds to hold dominion over. It has also cost the Imperium greatly as the direction of the awesome psychic attack causes the Astronicom to cease whilst the Emperors attention is elsewhere, countless vessels are lost in the warp.

Thus why I say it would be better.

There'd be no Imperium as we know it then. The Imperium would be Tau Empire sized if lucky.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:There'd be no Imperium as we know it then. The Imperium would be Tau Empire sized if lucky.

I regard the IG as the bricks in the wall, the SM is the mortar holding them together. So I agree with you. Without the SM "No Empire for you!" Soup Nazi-voice.

There'd be nobody for the haters to hate on, so all the Space Marine hate would probably fall onto Orks or Tyranids.

Well, for a start, chaos would actually win something, as well as da orkses.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The great crusade would have not succeeded but at the same time the Horus heresy may not have happened although the taint of chaos is inevitable.

There would be some other organisation with super soldiers. Maybe one that has actually evolved during 10,000 years.

Without Space Marines, Guard would have a dozen different codexes, and we'd all be sitting around speculating how 40k would be without IG.

Grakmar wrote:Without Space Marines, Guard would have a dozen different codexes, and we'd all be sitting around speculating how 40k would be without IG.

And everyone would be angry about the Cadians being the best WH40k has to offer.

I would say almost exactly that without the Space Marines, its likely the emporer would still be alive. which means that its likely our solar system would be thriving.

I'd even go as far to say that the Mechano's legions (titans) would still be in our system and it'd just be one big frickin fotress until the bugs attacked.

the tide of the overmind is REALLY big, it points to the fact that the Tyranids are probably going to win this war, based on SHEER volume.

as Lenon once stated "Quantity is its own quality."

so yea, we'd have one big happy planet until the bugs came.

crap, we'd be Starship Troopers people!!!!

Lenon, that was an interesting typo. The "Quantity in itself is quality"-quote is attributed to Stalin. Still the Lenon-thingy actually made me laugh.

Beaviz81 wrote:Lenon, that was an interesting typo. The "Quantity in itself is quality"-quote is attributed to Stalin. Still the Lenon-thingy actually made me laugh.

yea it was between the 2. I didn't bother looking it up. meh.

the point still stands, sheer volume has its place.

I also Spelled Lenin wrong LOLOLOLOL

as if John Lennon made a historic statement about the production of wargear right?

Rimmy wrote:

Beaviz81 wrote:Lenon, that was an interesting typo. The "Quantity in itself is quality"-quote is attributed to Stalin. Still the Lenon-thingy actually made me laugh.

yea it was between the 2. I didn't bother looking it up. meh.

the point still stands, sheer volume has its place.

I also Spelled Lenin wrong LOLOLOLOL

as if John Lennon made a historic statement about the production of wargear right?

No but Lennon made a certain comment about Jesus. That would in Wh40 be like Ciaphas Cain claiming he is bigger than Horus or Robute.

Also you can have done the old Lemon-thingy (seriously you don't want to visit that page, only a Dark Eldar feel pleasure from that), which really adds some interesting sourness to the thingy.

Lennon spoke the truth. At the height of Beatlemania, particularly in England, young people undoubtedly cared more about the Beatles (and by extension, rock 'n roll) than Jesus.

As for Stalin's comment on tank production, it is usually translated as "quantity has a quality of its own", but there's no verifiable source for this quote as far as I'm aware.