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pretre wrote:

Joe Mama wrote:Here's one example to drive the point home. You could have two three man squads of TWC, costing 180 each, or you could have one three man squad with all SS costing 270. 6 TWC guys in this case would be only 90 points more than 3 super defensively buffed ones. Two squads, two hammers, twice the potential attacks including twice the S10 hammers. See how that works?

Unequal comparison.
I can take:
3 TWC: SS/PF, SS, Normal (the one we were recommending) for 230
2 TWC: PF, Normal for 125
355

You could do that, since you can do anything you want to. What you did here is not put at least one SS in each squad like you were arguing for before. So congratulations you abandoned your position! Thanks for defeating your own argument! Also, WTH dude, no one takes 2 TWC only. Example Fail!

PS - Your point total is wrong for your first squad!!!!! By a lot!

You know what? Your scathing criticism and rapier wit have changed my mind. SS should never be taken on TWC. Brilliant!

Thanks, Joe Mama!


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Also, I run 2 x 2 TWC all the time.

Sigh. I'll throw in my own 2 cents on this one:
1 with TH/SS
1 with SS
Wolf Lord with WC/SS + Saga of the Bear + 2 Fenrisian Wolves
Canis Wolfborn + 2 Fenrisian Wolves

I also plan on getting 3 more TWC, all with SS at least. Sure it's bloody expensive, but it is a nightmare to face and I've had it chew through a maxed out power blob without suffering a single casualty in a turn and a half.

Not saying that this is necessarily the "best" way to run them, but man is it fun in a large-scale 40k game.

You know speaking of TW, is there any point to have a Iron Priest have one?

I actually have to say Iron Priests on Thunderwolves are pretty awesome.

165 points gets you:

Iron Priest with Thunderwolf, Wolf Tooth Necklace and 4the Cyber Wolves.

Thats 16 S4 attacks at I4, 4 S10 attacks and 1 S8 attack, oh those S8/10 attacks hit on a 3+ and the whole unit is T5...plus you can allocate power weapon wounds all around the Cyber wolves before you have to take a wound.

kenshin620 wrote:You know speaking of TW, is there any point to have a Iron Priest have one?

Yes, if you're running a TWC-spam list and want to max out the number of Thunderwolves you can run. It's probably actually the most effective way to run an Iron Priest, but it's still not OMFG-AMAZING! by any stretch.

Unholy_Martyr wrote:I actually have to say Iron Priests on Thunderwolves are pretty awesome.

165 points gets you:

Iron Priest with Thunderwolf, Wolf Tooth Necklace and 4the Cyber Wolves.

Thats 16 S4 attacks at I4, 4 S10 attacks and 1 S8 attack, oh those S8/10 attacks hit on a 3+ and the whole unit is T5...plus you can allocate power weapon wounds all around the Cyber wolves before you have to take a wound.

Hmm never thought of that. Thats actually a pretty inexpensive-ish combo

Put a Wolf Lord with them amd watch the fur fly!

pretre wrote:You know what? Your scathing criticism and rapier wit have changed my mind. SS should never be taken on TWC. Brilliant!

Good.

PS - Why are you leaving completely inaccurate points totals in this thread? I imagine you know how to edit your posts?

It's 5 points off. Which just makes it match your loadout. Big deal. I didn't have my codex in front of me.

Also, might want to learn to sarcasm. You never even addressed my main point which was for the same points I can get 1-2 less models that are signficantly more survivable due to Wound Allocation and Storm Shields.

Not sure why you came into this thread guns blazing and junk out, but you might want to tone it down a bit. We're just discussing toy men.

Most cost efficient IMO:
2 thundercav, powerfist
2 thundercav, powerfist
2 thundercav, powerfist
375pts

Three very punchy, cheap, disposable and flexible units. They cannot take on deathstars, but anything not dedicated to close combat will be fair game, and vehicle hunting is fun.

If you go with the much more expensive larger squads with storm shields etc, you need a lord to improve their Ld, and suddenly, you are looking at an investment of 600+ pts for a deathstar that has quite a lot of weaknesses. PBS, Fear of the darkness = very scary for large units while not being something you worry about with smaller squads. Deathstar thundercav works, but IMO, MSU thundercav is much more flexible.

pretre wrote:It's 5 points off.

Numbers matter in this game.

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pretre wrote:You never even addressed my main point...

You're joking right? You argue for a SS in every squad, then your example has no SS in one squad. I don't need to address your point when you argue against yourself.

3 TWC is 150, 2 SS is 60, PF is 25. Check your book.

TWC are 50pts/model. So stick your snark where the sun doesn't shine and actually crack your codex.


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Oh look, you edited because you realized that TWC aren't 55 points a piece.

pretre wrote:So stick your snark where the sun doesn't shine

Are you an adult, or a child? What's with all the personal comments and insults? Why do you try to make this personal? Please stop.

Joe Mama wrote:

pretre wrote:You never even addressed my main point...

You're joking right? You argue for a SS in every squad, then your example has no SS in one squad. I don't need to address your point when you argue against yourself.

I had one squad without to fill the points between your example 2 squads and my example one squad. You were comparing a 200 point unit to a 300+ point unit. It was silly. Either way, you've just made my ignore list. You came in here aggressive for no particular reason and I don't need to deal with it.

Illumini wrote:If you go with the much more expensive larger squads with storm shields etc, you need a lord to improve their Ld, and suddenly, you are looking at an investment of 600+ pts for a deathstar that has quite a lot of weaknesses. PBS, Fear of the darkness = very scary for large units while not being something you worry about with smaller squads. Deathstar thundercav works, but IMO, MSU thundercav is much more flexible.

Hey hey, finally, someone else is looking at this logically and is making a lot of sense. Good points all around.


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pretre wrote:I had one squad without to fill the points between your example 2 squads and my example one squad.

That's what's known as a poor poor excuse. Don't argue for one method, then turn around a minute later and contradict yourself. That just makes you look like you don't believe in your own argument.

Either way, you've just made my ignore list. You came in here aggressive for no particular reason and I don't need to deal with it.

Again, I'm talking about TWCs and 40k, and you are making personal remarks about "snark" and "aggressiveness" and telling me to stick things where the "sun doesn't shine." You SHOULD ignore me if you can't conduct yourself like an adult. Stick to the issues, don't attack the people behind them.

@Illumini

MSU Thunderwolves can be effective; however, they can be relatively detrimental as well. If you're already running an MSU style list, kill points become prohibitive. Additionally, the Thunderwolves lose some of their teeth as the likelihood of them surviving diminishes.

I would say your set up would be good but with only 2 small groups that are supporting Rhino Rush style Grey Hunters.

Joe Mama wrote:

Illumini wrote:If you go with the much more expensive larger squads with storm shields etc, you need a lord to improve their Ld, and suddenly, you are looking at an investment of 600+ pts for a deathstar that has quite a lot of weaknesses. PBS, Fear of the darkness = very scary for large units while not being something you worry about with smaller squads. Deathstar thundercav works, but IMO, MSU thundercav is much more flexible.

Hey hey, finally, someone else is looking at this logically and is making a lot of sense. Good points all around.

Perhaps, but luckily for me I've never even seen a PBS in my meta.

Illumini wrote:Deathstar thundercav works, but IMO, MSU thundercav is much more flexible.

Indeed, but those are two extreme cases. It clearly depends on the role you want to give them, and a couple smallish, more tooled-up squads certainly presents an interesting middle ground.

In the eternal words of Rodney King: "Can't we all just get along?"

Unholy_Martyr wrote:It's actually pretty simple Joe.

There are far too many things that can either ID Thunderwolves or ignore their armor saves that gambling on not having a Storm Shield pays off. 30 Points to prevent a 50+ point model from being gimped before it has a say so is worth investigating.

As for your thought on my layout for the Thunderwolf squad, you seemed to have missed the point on that post. That modeling scheme gives him the ability to do 3 things:

1) Play a unit such as the one provided
2) Maximize the models he's getting in the box
3) Give him options for Wolf Lords later on down the road.

Each to their own at the end of the day; however, just flatly saying that something is too expensive serves to exemplify lack of experience over anything else.

This, all of it.

Look, I don't run Storm Shields normally. When the new box comes in I'm probably building otu the unit like this though. Just had an excellent Wolf on Wolf game and the clincher was that his TWC had Storm Shields and mine didn't. So despite all my wonderful armor save denying gear, he was able to keep on walking through Grey Hunters (and while I risked my WGBL, he died to one failed save thanks to a S10 Power Fist).

There were a few other tactical blunders on my part that cost me the game, but the main reason I lost so badly was the Storm Shields on the Thunderwolves.

Normally, Storm Shields are a non-issue for me. Too many local players don't bring a lot of Power Fists or Power Weapons because they try to Razorspam. Or they have them but fail to wound me and I just get lucky. Or they don't have enough outside of ICs, which my WGBL eats up. I'd say probably 78-84% of the time you don't need Storm Shields. But when you do need them, they can cost you the game.

I don't like it, but there it is.

The top sw player in this area runs 3 identical units. This is a little excessive to the OP but I think he will get the point

3 identical squads of 4 man units:
-PF/SS
-SS
-Normal
-Melts bomb

Yes its expensive, yes he is called cheesy, but he wins and the rest of his army is designed to support these units. Those storm shields pay for themselves in almost every game.

I go with

1 with SS
1 basic
1 with frostaxe (so he gets 6 attacks for having an extra cc weapon)

I just find the SS guy to be really vital at eating lascannon or melta shots.

Its a unit that rarely lets me down.