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They are undercosted, by even their ORIGINAL standard.

Old Comparison:

Original Tactical Squad Marine: 15 points (without grenades of course)

Original Blood claw: 15 (works out okay)

Original Gray Hunter 17 (Yeah, they were considered two points above even with the same statline, with True Grit which gave them two attacks, though they couldn't get a charge bonus)

New gray hunter: 15 (Sorry Kelly, you fethed up)

New blood claw: 15 (Why is there a reason to take this with Gray hunters being so cheap and without flaws?)

Now if they brought the original marines back down to 15, blood angels back to 15-16. There'd be far less argument, but the issue is, space wolves got cheaper marines for better special skills.

when the gak hits the fan the big E sent, the big I send in the Wolves

hence they need to be better than average

DIDM wrote:when the gak hits the fan the big E sent, the big I send in the Wolves

hence they need to be better than average

There's nothing wrong with them being better, but they should be paying for that.

Tadashi wrote:

azazel the cat wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Because their codex is stupidly overpowered that it's unbalanced, that's why.

Congratulations!

You win the prize for being the first person in this thread to give a sweeping generalization as your opinion, and then fail to deliver a single fact or example to back it up!

I cannot wait to hear your acceptance speech.

JOTWW...it is enough.

Only a Rune Priests can take this, and I think you're overvaluing it. It's a great way to kill Necrons, but against DE, any Marines or Tau it doesn't really cause that many problems. Also, its range is quite limited. I think that the Blood Angels' Blood Lance is far more powerful.

-Loki- wrote:

DIDM wrote:when the gak hits the fan the big E sent, the big I send in the Wolves

hence they need to be better than average

There's nothing wrong with them being better, but they should be paying for that.

why? If the points were equal to their value they would then be equals right? Well they aren't, so they get to be equal for less, making them better. They aren't unstoppable beasts, they are just great overall.

Experiment 626 wrote:Grey Hunter disadvantages:
- lose combat tactics/chapter tactics. (the latter can be utterly huge when you consider you don't get army-wide twin-linked meltas or 'fleeting' hammernators!)
- do not have 'combat squads' rule.
- cannot take a heavy weapon.
- must pay through the nose for a sergeant equivalent & use-up an Elites slot to do so!
- adding a wolf guard pack leader means you can't take 2x special weapons in a rhino since you'll have 11 guys in the squad.

Pretty damn even on the trade-off really. Sure, Grey Hunters are much better in an agressive playstyle, but they lack the full tactical utility of all other basic marine squads, and they won't get perks like FnP + furious charge bubbles or twin-linked meltaguns/flamers and such.

Not having Combat Squads kind of sucks in Objective games, unless you're running Razorspam... Gives Space Wolves a bit of a different focus than Vanilla Marines (same with the no heavy weapons for Grey Hunters). All-in-all though, Tactical Squads should be 15pts instead of 16 and then things would be more balanced.

Experiment 626 wrote:The idea that Long Fangs are OP is even funnier... Sure, a dev squad equivalent, that focuses almost all your long-ranged big guns into a tiny squad with 0 ablative wounds!

By turn 2, you should have something in range to open-up on them. Otherwise, perhaps it's time to look into all those deep striking squads that are the death of small units like Long Fangs. Hell, I've done-in a missilefange squad with all of 5 Pink Horrors! The unit is made of glass and can't take the punishment like even vanilla devies can!
I mean, if you can deal with the BA's FnP devastators for example, why can't you deal with a much squisher version of the same thing?!

SW's power lists are good and make them a top contender, but I honestly find IG, BA's and especially GK's to be far worse and much more of a rock/papper/scissors match-up than wolves.

I disagree with this, most people will run 2-3 squads of Long Fangs, do you'd have to wipe out all 3 of them to neutralize the threat... good luck. Long Fangs are undercosted somewhat. Missile Launchers should be about 15pts each and then there wouldn't be so much complaining.

Commisar Wolfie wrote:
The squad leader isn't exactly expenable considering that as soon as he's gone so is the squad's ability to split fire.

Yes he is. Splitting Fire can be handy, but more often than not having another missile launcher is much better. I rarely split fire unless I'm in a desperate situation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, who said that Rune Priests are expensive? 100pts is the average cost for a Librarian-character. My one complaint is that they're mostly offensive in terms of their powers (or at least the good ones) rather than buffers (like Blood Angels).

DIDM wrote:

-Loki- wrote:

DIDM wrote:when the gak hits the fan the big E sent, the big I send in the Wolves

hence they need to be better than average

There's nothing wrong with them being better, but they should be paying for that.

why? If the points were equal to their value they would then be equals right? Well they aren't, so they get to be equal for less, making them better. They aren't unstoppable beasts, they are just great overall.

Possibly the worst reasoning I've ever heard in a game that is supposed to be balance on a points system. "They are better because the fluff says so?" REALLY?

Only a Rune Priests can take this, and I think you're overvaluing it. It's a great way to kill Necrons, but against DE, any Marines or Tau it doesn't really cause that many problems. Also, its range is quite limited. I think that the Blood Angels' Blood Lance is far more powerful.

This is just wrong. Period.

Blood Lance is a 4D6" range S8 AP1 gun. BA do not lack short ranged anti-tank (melta) weapons.

JotWW is a 24" range, (wow, better range!) ranged instant death cannon. Sure it's not amazing against MeQ and Eldar, but that's what the second power is for. Against Demons, Nids, Orks and Necrons (even Tau Suits only have I3 so die half the time) it can be literally a game winning spell by itself. You don't know annoying until you've seen a 200 point Tervigon dropped into a hole the top of turn 1. Grats to starting with a 200 point disadvantage 60% of the time. It bypasses so many basic rules it's unreal. No roll to hit, bypasses your save, invul save, cover, toughness/wound roll, bypasses wound allocation and independent character rules and nukes everything in a line including in combat and out of LOS. If it was a S10 AP1 Melta lance with 48" range it would be a downgrade in it's power overall and still the best weapon in the game. The fact this comes on a 100 point obligatory HQ which also has pretty much the best psychic defense in the game is frankly insulting.

FYI, Wolf Guard sergeants for Grey Hunters are significantly cheaper then Vanilla and BA equivalents. You can argue the Elite slot disappearing all you want, but they really are a lot cheaper.

The fact this comes on a 100 point obligatory HQ which also has pretty much the best psychic defense in the game is frankly insulting.

That you can take four of, don't forget the fact Space wolves get FOUR HQ slots.

Carnage43 wrote:

JotWW is a 24" range, (wow, better range!) ranged instant death cannon. Sure it's not amazing against MeQ and Eldar, but that's what the second power is for. Against Demons, Nids, Orks and Necrons (even Tau Suits only have I3 so die half the time) it can be literally a game winning spell by itself. You don't know annoying until you've seen a 200 point Tervigon dropped into a hole the top of turn 1. Grats to starting with a 200 point disadvantage 60% of the time. It bypasses so many basic rules it's unreal. No roll to hit, bypasses your save, invul save, cover, toughness/wound roll, bypasses wound allocation and independent character rules and nukes everything in a line including in combat and out of LOS. If it was a S10 AP1 Melta lance with 48" range it would be a downgrade in it's power overall and still the best weapon in the game. The fact this comes on a 100 point obligatory HQ which also has pretty much the best psychic defense in the game is frankly insulting.

FYI, Wolf Guard sergeants for Grey Hunters are significantly cheaper then Vanilla and BA equivalents. You can argue the Elite slot disappearing all you want, but they really are a lot cheaper.

Ever see a blood talon dread chew through a squad of it doesn't matter what?
Ever see a mind shackle scarb make your 200+ point character attack his own squad or worse himself?
Ever see a GK list without psybolt ammo?
Ever see ... and the list goes on.

JOTWW is easily countered by not putting your guys on the ground (jump packs), having your own form of psychic defense, putting everything in transports, etc.

Yes some armies do get boned by it. However, I've seen 900 points of tau high tail it off the table because of a single Fear the Darkness back in the old SM codex. If you want to hate on it, thats fine, but there have been and will be other more ridiculous powers that will show up that completely hammer one army or the other.

As for GH being undercosted, short memories make for amusing reading. When the 5th ed SM codex a 16 point marine was considered fair because 15 points was too cheap vs the 8 point guard (who didn't have special orders), the 10 point firewarrior, the 17 point Grey Hunter, the 18 point blood angel and necron, etc. However (again thank IG) the points of basic squads started to drop. Its just that SM have not been redone yet. Yes now tac marines are not worth 16 points, Probably 14 points when looking at everything that has come out since IG. However, now the poor firewarrior, battlesister, eldar guardian, etc. is stupidly overcosted.

Now remove all codexs older than IG. There is no way you can argue that grey hunter is undercosted when compared to Necrons at 14 and 18 points who always return to fight 1/3 of the time and have "special rule" guns. Or BA assault squads with the "free" rhino/razorback. Or the 6 point IG fodder when combined with their special rules called "orders".

So as I've said before, I'm so sorry that your codex that you are currently playing has not been upgraded with all the cool toys. I know your pain, my Tau, Ork, and Emperors Children armies haven't seen the table top in years.

Necron Warriors are still garbage, and will always be garbage until Sweeping Advance is gone.

Sasori wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:

Emerett wrote:Grey Hunters get no heavy weapon choice, but have a close combat weapon and a couple of abilities.

Rune Priests are expensive, but extremely awesome.

Long Fangs.... well long fangs are a little OP.

Long fangs are not overpowered. The missile launcher doesn't magically become AP1 in their hands. They are however undercosted. If the MLs were 16 points or so each there wouldn't be quite as much a call of OP.

And when compared to some of the other HS in the game they really don't put out any more hurt than any others.

Undercosted, is the equivalent to OP.

This is what I was going for.

Now remove all codexs older than IG. There is no way you can argue that grey hunter is undercosted when compared to Necrons at 14 and 18 points who always return to fight 1/3 of the time and have "special rule" guns. Or BA assault squads with the "free" rhino/razorback. Or the 6 point IG fodder when combined with their special rules called "orders".

I can easily, still say that a GH is undercosted to both Warriors, and Immortals.

Because they are.

GH should be 16-17 points, without breaking a sweat.

Long Fangs with 5 ML are cheaper than Devs with 4 MLs... with the ability to split fire. Seriously, CHEAPER? It'd be futarded if they were the same cost. having them be 5 pts. cheaper for 1 more ML is just a slap in the face.

Space Wolves have ALWAYS gotten all the shiny stuff though. Their 2nd edition codex was the most ridiculous piece of crap ever.

Carnage43 wrote:

DIDM wrote:

-Loki- wrote:

DIDM wrote:when the gak hits the fan the big E sent, the big I send in the Wolves

hence they need to be better than average

There's nothing wrong with them being better, but they should be paying for that.

why? If the points were equal to their value they would then be equals right? Well they aren't, so they get to be equal for less, making them better. They aren't unstoppable beasts, they are just great overall.

Possibly the worst reasoning I've ever heard in a game that is supposed to be balance on a points system. "They are better because the fluff says so?" REALLY?

Only a Rune Priests can take this, and I think you're overvaluing it. It's a great way to kill Necrons, but against DE, any Marines or Tau it doesn't really cause that many problems. Also, its range is quite limited. I think that the Blood Angels' Blood Lance is far more powerful.

This is just wrong. Period.

Blood Lance is a 4D6" range S8 AP1 gun. BA do not lack short ranged anti-tank (melta) weapons.

JotWW is a 24" range, (wow, better range!) ranged instant death cannon. Sure it's not amazing against MeQ and Eldar, but that's what the second power is for. Against Demons, Nids, Orks and Necrons (even Tau Suits only have I3 so die half the time) it can be literally a game winning spell by itself. You don't know annoying until you've seen a 200 point Tervigon dropped into a hole the top of turn 1. Grats to starting with a 200 point disadvantage 60% of the time. It bypasses so many basic rules it's unreal. No roll to hit, bypasses your save, invul save, cover, toughness/wound roll, bypasses wound allocation and independent character rules and nukes everything in a line including in combat and out of LOS. If it was a S10 AP1 Melta lance with 48" range it would be a downgrade in it's power overall and still the best weapon in the game. The fact this comes on a 100 point obligatory HQ which also has pretty much the best psychic defense in the game is frankly insulting.

FYI, Wolf Guard sergeants for Grey Hunters are significantly cheaper then Vanilla and BA equivalents. You can argue the Elite slot disappearing all you want, but they really are a lot cheaper.

they are the ones sent out to take out other space marines when the Emp says so


so YES, they are more powerful because their fluff says they are. Is that hard to understand? The GK are also very powerful, more so than the SW, because they are an ELITE SMALL fighting force. They are the Navy Seals of WH40K. Are every Army Regiment as powerful/successful/awesome? There will always be stronger armies, the fun in the game is figuring out how to beat them, as there are ways.

Sasori wrote:

Now remove all codexs older than IG. There is no way you can argue that grey hunter is undercosted when compared to Necrons at 14 and 18 points who always return to fight 1/3 of the time and have "special rule" guns. Or BA assault squads with the "free" rhino/razorback. Or the 6 point IG fodder when combined with their special rules called "orders".

I can easily, still say that a GH is undercosted to both Warriors, and Immortals.

Because they are.

GH should be 16-17 points, without breaking a sweat.

In agreement here. Grey hunters compared to Necrons (Who cannot melee to save their life, low initiative, cannot take special weapons, worse armor save, only reanimation protocols) vs (Acute senses, counterstrike, two special weapons, banner, D6 rending, sargent who potentially is in TERMINATOR ARMOR)

so YES, they are more powerful because their fluff says they are. Is that hard to understand? The GK are also very powerful, more so than the SW, because they are an ELITE SMALL fighting force. They are the Navy Seals of WH40K. Are every Army Regiment as powerful/successful/awesome? There will always be stronger armies, the fun in the game is figuring out how to beat them, as there are ways.

I'm sorry, but are we disagreeing here? What we're asking is that you PRICE THEM FAIRLY TO WHAT THEY CAN DO.

Draigo wrote:... would appeal to people like the new op army appeals to power gamers and waac players.

Anyone else find it very funny that this was posted by someone who's screen name is "Draigo"?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DIDM wrote:


they are the ones sent out to take out other space marines when the Emp says so


so YES, they are more powerful because their fluff says they are. Is that hard to understand? The GK are also very powerful, more so than the SW, because they are an ELITE SMALL fighting force. They are the Navy Seals of WH40K. Are every Army Regiment as powerful/successful/awesome? There will always be stronger armies, the fun in the game is figuring out how to beat them, as there are ways.

yes yes. We get... it they're the ultra-cool special guys. The problem is that the game is based upon the assumption that each side is balanced against each other due to the points values set in the codices. It doesn't matter how ultracoolbadass a unit is supposed to be in fluff terms, they should be costed out to reflect it in-game. Otherwise you get people saying it's OP or under-costed. Especially when the same unit in other codices is worse AND more expensive. There's little justification for that other than someone in a big office somewhere has gray painted marines.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Sasori wrote:

Now remove all codexs older than IG. There is no way you can argue that grey hunter is undercosted when compared to Necrons at 14 and 18 points who always return to fight 1/3 of the time and have "special rule" guns. Or BA assault squads with the "free" rhino/razorback. Or the 6 point IG fodder when combined with their special rules called "orders".

I can easily, still say that a GH is undercosted to both Warriors, and Immortals.

Because they are.

GH should be 16-17 points, without breaking a sweat.

In agreement here. Grey hunters compared to Necrons (Who cannot melee to save their life, low initiative, cannot take special weapons, worse armor save, only reanimation protocols) vs (Acute senses, counterstrike, two special weapons, banner, D6 rending, sargent who potentially is in TERMINATOR ARMOR)

Probably should ignore upgrades here, or we might as well say that Crypteks are standard-issue with Warriors, Immortals, etc...

Jayden63 wrote:

Carnage43 wrote:

JotWW is a 24" range, (wow, better range!) ranged instant death cannon. Sure it's not amazing against MeQ and Eldar, but that's what the second power is for. Against Demons, Nids, Orks and Necrons (even Tau Suits only have I3 so die half the time) it can be literally a game winning spell by itself. You don't know annoying until you've seen a 200 point Tervigon dropped into a hole the top of turn 1. Grats to starting with a 200 point disadvantage 60% of the time. It bypasses so many basic rules it's unreal. No roll to hit, bypasses your save, invul save, cover, toughness/wound roll, bypasses wound allocation and independent character rules and nukes everything in a line including in combat and out of LOS. If it was a S10 AP1 Melta lance with 48" range it would be a downgrade in it's power overall and still the best weapon in the game. The fact this comes on a 100 point obligatory HQ which also has pretty much the best psychic defense in the game is frankly insulting.

FYI, Wolf Guard sergeants for Grey Hunters are significantly cheaper then Vanilla and BA equivalents. You can argue the Elite slot disappearing all you want, but they really are a lot cheaper.

Ever see a blood talon dread chew through a squad of it doesn't matter what?
Ever see a mind shackle scarb make your 200+ point character attack his own squad or worse himself?
Ever see a GK list without psybolt ammo?
Ever see ... and the list goes on.

JOTWW is easily countered by not putting your guys on the ground (jump packs), having your own form of psychic defense, putting everything in transports, etc.

Ever see a mechanised Tyranid army?

Putting wings on a Hive Tyrant doesn't make it immune (since it only moves like jump infantry, it doesn't become jump infantry). Psychic defence has half the reach of JOTWW's range. Tyranids don't get transports. Etc.

Consider how many important units in the army have low initiative (Hive Tyrants, Trygons, Hive Guard, Zoanthropes, Tervigons). Pretty much anything essential to making Tyranids work as an army needs to be close to other units (because they're generally synapse creatures) making it easy to target that unit and angle a snipe at the important unit (even if it's not in LOS), or has an effective range range equal to or shorter than JOTWW's range (like Impaler Cannons).

JOTWW doesn't bone Tyranids, it throws them over a dumpster and has its way with their sphincter.

It's nice how JOTWW defenders shrug it off, when most peoples objections to it (even from Tyranid players) isn't that it's powerful against their army, but just that it bypasses almost every mechanic in the game to kill a unit. Roll to hit? To wound? Armour Save? Invulnerable save? Cover save? FNP save? Eternal Warrior? Wound Allocation? LOS (with sniping shenanigans)? No.

Psychic test, initiative test, removed from the table. Not dealt wounds and not instant death, but a new type of wording designed to bypass USRs in place to stop instant death.

It's terrible game design.

The ability to take super efficient shooty and HTH without sacrificing anything. Space Wolves arent the only culprit (especially with GK running around) but they are so blatantly 'point and click' to dominate with.

As had been said, long fangs should pay a premium to split fire and carry a 5th weapon. Grey Hunters and Wolfguard should both have either a hike in points or restrictions, its just sensible given the precedent of the other marine book you have lying around at the time of writing. JOTWW, as had been mentioned, bypasses mechanics. There is a reason the Necrons in the new book lost the old warscythe ability; it was too powerful and the book had other new things to work with.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
With that said hopefully every other book will get an update and put them on par. Im fine with rather insane builds if every army gets in on the fun. As it stands a 40k meta that just contains the last 5 or 6 books is a balanced meta with each army able to deal on many levels with each other, given time hopefully this will be the state of affairs after all updates.

SlaveToDorkness wrote:

Draigo wrote:... would appeal to people like the new op army appeals to power gamers and waac players.

Anyone else find it very funny that this was posted by someone who's screen name is "Draigo"?

Doesn't make my statement any less true but does display poor choices in names.

Andilus Greatsword wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Sasori wrote:

Now remove all codexs older than IG. There is no way you can argue that grey hunter is undercosted when compared to Necrons at 14 and 18 points who always return to fight 1/3 of the time and have "special rule" guns. Or BA assault squads with the "free" rhino/razorback. Or the 6 point IG fodder when combined with their special rules called "orders".

I can easily, still say that a GH is undercosted to both Warriors, and Immortals.

Because they are.

GH should be 16-17 points, without breaking a sweat.

In agreement here. Grey hunters compared to Necrons (Who cannot melee to save their life, low initiative, cannot take special weapons, worse armor save, only reanimation protocols) vs (Acute senses, counterstrike, two special weapons, banner, D6 rending, sargent who potentially is in TERMINATOR ARMOR)

Probably should ignore upgrades here, or we might as well say that Crypteks are standard-issue with Warriors, Immortals, etc...

Alright, we'll ignore the Wolf guard than, which means that even without them and crypteks... GH still have plenty of base upgrades that Necrons cannot get without a wolf guard equivalent. Not to mention all the stuff Crypteks get are one of a kind (unless taking two royal courts) And with exception of the staffs.

Gray Hunter differences: Double I, Lower LD (Counterattack, CCW/Bolt pistol, ASTKNF, Acute senses)
vs
Immortals: Lower I, Better base weapon, Higher LD, (Reanimation protocols)

Now GH are 2 less points than immortals. And one less than a standard Tac Marine. This should be a good baseline for the closest to GH Stats.

Now, sure immortals get back up 1/3rd of the time, but ASTFK means Gray hunters will never autorout like Immortals, not to mention they'd completely obliterate Immortals through sheer numbers of attacks.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Andilus Greatsword wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Sasori wrote:

Now remove all codexs older than IG. There is no way you can argue that grey hunter is undercosted when compared to Necrons at 14 and 18 points who always return to fight 1/3 of the time and have "special rule" guns. Or BA assault squads with the "free" rhino/razorback. Or the 6 point IG fodder when combined with their special rules called "orders".

I can easily, still say that a GH is undercosted to both Warriors, and Immortals.

Because they are.

GH should be 16-17 points, without breaking a sweat.

In agreement here. Grey hunters compared to Necrons (Who cannot melee to save their life, low initiative, cannot take special weapons, worse armor save, only reanimation protocols) vs (Acute senses, counterstrike, two special weapons, banner, D6 rending, sargent who potentially is in TERMINATOR ARMOR)

Probably should ignore upgrades here, or we might as well say that Crypteks are standard-issue with Warriors, Immortals, etc...

Alright, we'll ignore the Wolf guard than, which means that even without them and crypteks... GH still have plenty of base upgrades that Necrons cannot get without a wolf guard equivalent. Not to mention all the stuff Crypteks get are one of a kind (unless taking two royal courts) And with exception of the staffs.

Gray Hunter differences: Double I, Lower LD (Counterattack, CCW/Bolt pistol, ASTKNF, Acute senses)
vs
Immortals: Lower I, Better base weapon, Higher LD, (Reanimation protocols)

Now GH are 2 less points than immortals. And one less than a standard Tac Marine. This should be a good baseline for the closest to GH Stats.

Agreed here. The fact that GH are comparable to Immortals, really shows me that the GHs need about a two point price hike.

In all honesty, I'd say that Grey Hunters might just deserve a 3 point price hike, and I'm saying this as both a Necron player and a Space Wolves player.

Grey Hunters should be 16 points base. Long Fangs should be 18 points base (and their heavy weapons priced like Blood Angels) and Blood Claws should be 14 points (+2 for a jump pack, +8 for a bike). Scouts could be 16 too.

It's the flat 15 points per model that makes Space Wolves undercosted for what they can do (or overcosted in the case of Blood Claws).

I'd actually argue that Bloodclaws on foot aren't overcosted at all, it's just that the Grey Hunters are undercosted and thus push the BCs out.

If fluff is a valid argument for codices being imbalanced,

then I submit that the fact that the Purifier fluff in the GK codex says that there are normally a galaxywide total of 40 Purifiers. Therefore Purifiers should cost a hundred points per model.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:I'd actually argue that Bloodclaws on foot aren't overcosted at all, it's just that the Grey Hunters are undercosted and thus push the BCs out.

I agree here, I think Bloodclaws are appropriately priced. It's just that with GH being the same price, and being so much better, there is no reason to take them.

Im confused...

The way I look at it between the 3 major Space Marine Codex'sthe Vanilla dex gets the large ranged options, the BA get the in your face assault insanity and Space Wolves occupy the middle ground. Does this make them overpowered?

I would say no it gives them far more flexibility at the cost of specialisation, Wolves will never be as good as a dedicated BA CC army in close combat, they will never be able to outshoot a well built Vanilla gunline.

Another big point people seem to be negelcting is slot competition, sure long fangs are awesome cheap so we load up on them, ever seen a space wolf army rocking a vindicator? Wolf Scouts are way better than than normal scouts at the expense of our elite slot. There is no vaccum where you can examine unit vs unit, 40k is an army based game, multiple units acting in concert are individual units in the SW dex OP? yes. But in ehnahcned Vaccum reality so are a lot of codexes.

danp164 wrote:Im confused...

The way I look at it between the 3 major Space Marine Codex'sthe Vanilla dex gets the large ranged options, the BA get the in your face assault insanity and Space Wolves occupy the middle ground. Does this make them overpowered?

You are looking at the game entirely wrong.

Vanilla aren't the "shooty" marines, they are the marines that suck at close combat so have to shoot, and do it no better then anyone else.
BA aren't the "assaulty" marines, they are the marines with FnP and FC bubbles and cheaper and faster transports, so have to exploit Sang priests and/or transports.
Space Wolves are the "under priced troop (GH), Heavy Support (Fangs)" army with toys, so they do best when they have a lot of missiles and troops.

Assault is largely a bad idea in this edition as an offensive option. It's far better to blast the enemy off the board with meltas, missile and whatever else as the enemy can't "swing back" or "catch you in the open after a bad consolidation move" if you are sitting in mid-field or your deployment zone wrecking his face off.

I would say no it gives them far more flexibility at the cost of specialisation, Wolves will never be as good as a dedicated BA CC army in close combat, they will never be able to outshoot a well built Vanilla gunline.

Space Wolves wreck vanilla marine gun lines actually, and a Grey Hunter can shoot as well as a Tactical marine and fight as good as an assault marine in combat. I'd much rather have a unit that is really good at 1 thing, then crumby at 3. Proper battlefield maneuvering will make sure that a unit will play to it's strengths, and when a unit's strong point...isn't very strong...they suck.

Another big point people seem to be negelcting is slot competition, sure long fangs are awesome cheap so we load up on them, ever seen a space wolf army rocking a vindicator? Wolf Scouts are way better than than normal scouts at the expense of our elite slot. There is no vaccum where you can examine unit vs unit, 40k is an army based game, multiple units acting in concert are individual units in the SW dex OP? yes. But in ehnahcned Vaccum reality so are a lot of codexes.

Slot competition is a moot point when one unit is so much better then the others it's silly not to take it. No SW vindicators? BOO HO, Long Fangs are so good they make vindicators look like crap (more so then usual). Blood claws being neglicted? Who cares when your other troop is amazing? Only 2 Elite slots? Oh no! At least you are saving 20+ point per sergeant compared to BA and Vanilla for that loss of what....a third dread, another squad squad or a Lone Wolf? Vanilla/BA wouldn't even be able to afford that unit due to paying more for their stuff.

You can't look at these overpowered units in a vacuum and need to look at them in relation to the rest of the codex? Why? The Average SW army is RP, 3-4 GH squads and 2-3 LF squads + flavor (TW Lord, TWC, speeders, scouts, all solid and not over powered units). The book might as well only have those units in it because you'd be mentally challenged not to build around them, they are that great.

SW are a good army because they have good troops, a cheap and good HQ, and excellent fire support while being able to play the MSU/Mech meta game to the max. Period.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:I'd actually argue that Bloodclaws on foot aren't overcosted at all, it's just that the Grey Hunters are undercosted and thus push the BCs out.

Super true. Compared with Scouts, they're downright amazing for their cost, it's just that next to Grey Hunters it's hard to look good.

danp164 wrote:Im confused...

The way I look at it between the 3 major Space Marine Codex'sthe Vanilla dex gets the large ranged options, the BA get the in your face assault insanity and Space Wolves occupy the middle ground. Does this make them overpowered?

SW's can be pretty damn in your face assaulty, often at the same time while being rather shooty.

That's also part of the problem, They can outfight equivalents while simultaneously matching them in shooting or outshoot them while simultaneously matching them for CC ability.

When you've got the wargear of CSM's, the morale rules of SM's, with counterattack and acute senses on top, and cost less with more upgrade options which are also cheaper, yeah, they're a bit overdone.

I would say no it gives them far more flexibility at the cost of specialisation, Wolves will never be as good as a dedicated BA CC army in close combat, they will never be able to outshoot a well built Vanilla gunline.

Wolves can quite capable match and outshoot a Vanilla gunline. gogogadget Long Fangs. They can get MSU razorback units cheaper than vanilla marines can (with some actual upgrades at 5/6 strong for the same price!), and with 3 units of long fangs with 5 split fire missile launchers sporting 3 TLLC razorbacks giving them 18 marines with 3 tanks and 18 long range heavy weapons for less than 650pts and able to engage up to 9 targets each turn, there's nothing in the game that can match that sort of firepower per points efficiency.

On top of that, with numerous CC upgrade options in their units, BP/CCW combo standard, wulfen upgrades, Wolf Priests, SC abilities, and of course Counterattack, they have few problems in the fighty department.

Another big point people seem to be negelcting is slot competition, sure long fangs are awesome cheap so we load up on them, ever seen a space wolf army rocking a vindicator?

Notice it's identical to pretty much all other Vindicators? There's nothing 'wrong' with SW vindicators, they can take them as competitively as any other army can.

Wolf Scouts are way better than than normal scouts at the expense of our elite slot.

And Bloodclaws are better than Scouts in the same slot.

There is no vaccum where you can examine unit vs unit, 40k is an army based game, multiple units acting in concert are individual units in the SW dex OP? yes. But in ehnahcned Vaccum reality so are a lot of codexes.

The problem is that the OP units are pretty much all the ones you need to make an extremely effective army or build the core of a list around.